Listen to this episode here.
Last Train to Brooklyn is an actual play from Twice Rolled Tales where they play Last Train to Bremen on a New York City subway car. It's also probably my favorite actual play full stop. Why? I think because it leans into what I'm most excited about this medium: treating capturing the act of play more like a documentary than a means towards fiction. It's excited at least as much about its nonfiction story as its fictional one.
Today I've invited Linnie Schell, one of the main creatives behind Last Train to Bremen, to come give me a beat by beat director's commentary on everything that went into it, all building to the moment I really wanted to highlight: its ending.
Further Reading
The RuPaul videos Linnie mentions
Comedy Book by Jesse David Fox
Last Train to Bremen by Caro Asercion
Socials
Maia on Bluesky
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Transcript
Sam: hello, and welcome to another episode of Dice Exploder. Each week we take a tabletop mechanic and ride with it all the way to the Linden stop. My name is Sam Dun Ald, and my co-host today is Linny Schell.
One of the reasons I wanted to make this series on actual play in the first place is I've always had a mismatched relationship to the medium. It is, in theory, so compelling to me, but in practice I so often feel distant from it, and I wanted to dig into why that was. I think you can hear a lot of what I've learned about all that in my first episode in this series with Rowan Zeoli, where we talk about the tensions between fiction and nonfiction and actual play. Are audiences here for the story the game creates, the story of the artists playing the game were the magic that happens when those two things collide?
I think you can probably hear what I think in there, but I also think so many actual plays give short shrift to that nonfiction layer specifically. And it was while kicking around all these ideas that Liddy Shell and twice rolled tails the actual Play Studio they've co-founded, released Last Train to Brooklyn, a 90 minute actual play of Last Train to Bremen set on a New York City subway car.
This thing is my favorite actual play. I don't know that it's the best or highest quality actual play out there, but for me, it so absolutely nails that nonfiction layer in a way that exemplifies what I find most compelling about this medium and where I want to see it pushing artistically: deeper and more explicitly into the nonfiction layer and the ways that, that's in tension with the fiction.
And quick plug Linnie and twice rolled tails are already doing more of that. Pushing with a new 10 candles. Actual play they released just last week. That's set on a camping trip around a bonfire. Check them out.
When I invited Linnie on the show, the moment I most wanted to highlight from Last Train of Brooklyn is at the very end of the piece. But to properly set that up, I felt like we kind of needed to go through the whole damn actual play first. So that's what you're getting today, me extracting essentially a full beat by beat director's commentary from Linnie as we hurdle down the tracks towards this thing's inevitable conclusion.
So come along with us, buy a ticket, train's leaving the station. Thanks to everyone who supports Stice explode on Patreon. And here is Lenny Shell with a 4:00 AM meal at a diner on the last train to Brooklyn.
Linnie Schell welcome to Dice Exploder. Thank you so much for being here today.
Linnie: I am so enthused. Thanks for having me.
Sam: Yeah, I'm excited to, I mean, not to, to spoil things here, but I think this is my favorite actual play of all time and
Linnie: Oh, no. Yes,
Sam: I.
Linnie: i, well, I, I mean, that's exactly what I set out to create, so I'm so excited to hear
Sam: Sam Dun Al's favorite actual play of all time. That was the goal. Okay. I wanna start with like, what is your background with tabletop games and with actual play, like coming into the creation of this thing?
Linnie: Sure. So I actually started doing actual play about the same time I started playing tabletop games, which I think is I think, you know, a common story that some people have for sure. But my background was primarily in theater, so doing a lot of props and kind of background work.
And I think I played like two episodes of a game. You can even hear it there, like two sessions of a game back in college. But like for some reason I just never was with people who were doing it. Like I really don't know how it happened because when I started playing it, people, you know, sat down and were like, Linnie, why have you not been doing this your whole life? And I'm like, I don't know. Tell me.
So yeah, so I was doing mostly props and I got really into kind of pop-up and experiential stuff. So doing, if you're familiar broadly with like Meow Wolf, kinda the Sleep No More stuff. . You know, like every year I'd put on a big production where we'd get like a bunch of artists and sound people and, and, and s sculpturist and, and you know, really kind of everyone I could draw artistically from a different area, throw 'em all together and we'd do like something in a big house or a convention center, that kind of thing.
And then of course, you know, the pandemic hit. And so doing stuff in person became less possible. And then right about the end of the pandemic, I moved to New York City with my roommate, who's also one of the co-owners of Twice Roll Tales kind of partner in crime here and from there, I think, you know, it was honestly some of the Dimension 20 stuff that came up.
So I had really had this misconception that tabletop was really kind of all just D&D and like my friends had played it for years and they had just been playing really combat heavy, really getting into the, the nitty gritty of the fighting and the math of it. And I just like, that was not my journey with it. And so I was like, oh, well this is not for me.
And then, you know, you see stuff on Dimension 20. And I know over the Pandemic I was like hearing more about it and I was like, oh, I, I could run some of that. So I ran like one like 10 episode adventure, like murder mystery. And I was, it was all online. And so I did this really fun thing of I created like four separate sets of props that were all the clues, and I packaged them into envelopes and they were all numbered. And so as we were playing, like people could discover clues and open up envelopes.
And then the really fun thing about that was there was informational asymetry. So if one player opens up an envelope, the other players do not necessarily have access to those clues.
And so I think that was like really the first time that I was like, oh, I can play these games. And then there's just something about, oh, I can also play with the structure of how we are playing it, and that could be really fun.
And then I ran one more, one shot over like Thanksgiving in person, and it was the most fun I'd ever had in my entire life. And then, You know, and honestly, right after that I got bullied by my friends into starting an actual play company.
Sam: Well, it does seem like you're really well positioned for it there. Like I, I think that theater kid kind of background and not just like theater kid enthusiasm, but like actual practical skills. Like one, one of the things that we'll get into here is how much the costumes, the sets, the production design of this thing feel really well taken care of
Linnie: no, for sure. Like, I like to say that It really just felt like this thing was waiting for me, and I spent a decade developing all the skills to be able to do the projects I want in it. And so when I stepped into it, I was like, oh, there's still so many things I need to learn, but like the base level skills, I've already really practiced a lot of.
Sam: Okay, cool. So that's your kind of background. You're coming out of all that like. Talk to me about the idea for Last Train to Brooklyn specifically. Maybe let's start with, where did you first encounter last train to Bremen?
Linnie: I have no idea.
Sam: Sure.
Linnie: Uh uh. I think. what it was was, it was probably one of the press announcements in Rascal And I pulled it up and you know, you just read something and you're like, okay, this is, this is something incredible. And so it just stuck in the back of my head.
And like, I, you know, I grew up in the south and like, I don't think you can grow up in the south without having a certain feeling about the devil. And,
Sam: Mm-hmm.
Sure.
Linnie: and so just the devil and then combined with the fact that like, I had moved to New York City and I was doing this, like being creative with people in New York City and working with all of these different people in different teams and hearing about how it went bad and good and great and awful.
And so the two of those things just kind of sat in my head for maybe like six months. And it was just like, oh, this. You know, it's that combination of like, this will tell a good story and this will also be something that, like not just a great story, but like that I feel like I have something I wanna say with it, you know?
Sam: Yeah. Okay. So what was that thing that you wanted to say? What were your goals for this? Was having a particular thing to say one of those goals, and if so, what was that thing?
Linnie: Yes, definitely. Okay. So there are definitely several things, So I think the first thing was. I have all this experience and have done all these things in physical theater, but also in this like improvisational pop-up set type thing where there's actors and the audience are all kind of together, and the full extent of the piece is only finished once it has been experienced by the audience. That there is a sense of like, it is incomplete until someone steps into the room to see it.
And with a lot of the AP that we were doing, I was kind of missing that feeling, like that, that we were just kind of sitting in a room by ourselves. And I was like, what? What can we do to bring the outside world into this so that we don't feel like we're just sitting in a room?
And so I wanted to like, I just really love putting things in places where they, they shouldn't be.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Linnie: And so I was like, well, we have this incredible city. I wanna put stuff in it. I wanna be in different places. I think part of it was just an instinct to be in a different space for the first time.
And I think the other things first off, were camera work. So I wanted to really test the limits of what the team could do with the camera and what I had kind of seen coming out in the past couple of years, at least within the circle of things I was seeing. To a large extent, it felt like all of the camera work I was seeing was primarily doing kind of the same thing, right? It was a camera in place. Or, you know, multicam switching between shots and that was it. And I was like, okay, well we have like a hundred years of film language to
Sam: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Linnie: Like, I'm not reinventing any wheels here in terms of like, film, the actual thing the camera is doing. Right. and it felt like a lot of, you know, people I talked to were just like, this is, it's, it was really hard. You know, it's really hard to do stuff on the street when you were also improvising a show around it.
Sam: And with only one camera too. Like
Linnie: well, that, that was the other, that was intentional.
Sam: yeah. Well, I, there's the clear, like creative payoff for only doing one camera, but that like makes it logistically so much harder too. Like you can't be cutting. Right. Like you, you
Linnie: The amount of times where the camera team would be like, so we could add, and I was like, no. One, camera. Well and so that was the other part of the intent one was, okay, so I know I have the skills to do something logistically challenging with the camera, right? I know I have the skills and the team and the people and the time and the resources to go do something really cool.
And the other thing is like, okay, well if I do something really cool and no one else who does not all have all of those time and resource and logistics, can't even do something close to that, it doesn't make it not worth doing, but I think I'm more interested in stuff that adds to the collaborative, artistic toolbox as it
Sam: Sure.
Linnie: So it's like, okay, well. If I go out and film something with three different cameras and a GoPro and a drone and all of that, I mean, I'm gonna go film stuff like that
Sam: Yeah. Yeah.
Linnie: drone and I'm going to use it. But like, okay, what what can we do that is one camera that someone, you know, who has a really strong artistic vision and an iPhone and a couple of, okay, mics could also replicate, right? They could, they could take that idea and build on it.
And, you know, you probably aren't gonna be able to do anything in the subway if you don't have good mics. But you could do something somewhere else, you know? So it was really important to me that there was replicability with this as well.
yeah. And then the, the other element was kind of this push toward para sociality and then also this friends at a table kind of thing that we reference a lot in actual play as a style of actual play.
Sam: Yeah. And that that is in some ways synonymous with actual play
when it, I think should
Linnie: Sure.
Yes. No, that's, and that was exactly, I think really the core of this was a frustration that it felt like A, people were pushing the fact that you had to develop this parasocial relationship with your audience, and B, that the only way to do that was to cultivate this sort of friends at a table mentality, right? Where you're,
And I really don't think that that is a bad way of producing actual play because I think it a lot of actual play the joy in it for me is that you get to see creator and creation happening at the same time. And friends at the table is a way of doing that. I just wish that we had more lexicon when we were making stuff that was readily apparent right now in our industry of friends at the table is one lens to tell that story with.
And I wanted to tell a similar story, like really focusing in on creative and creation. But I wasn't necessarily interested in people feeling like they were there at the table with us.
And I wanted to be able to be able to experience the joy of the thing we were creating and like to understand why we cared about it so much without necessarily feeling like they had to know everything about us as people.
Linnie: And I, and I think part of that is also a lot of actual plays do not necessarily put a lot of work up in the front end to introduce what they are doing to an audience.
And I think part of that is preference of AP audiences. You know, I see a lot of like, why is there all this intro stuff, people talking, just get to the story. And it's like that is one style. And if you are trying to get people to watch your actual play or listen to it who are not familiar with that style, it's sort of like opening up a play without even telling people what they're seeing. Right. They're just like, behold my thing and like it.
And I just don't know if that's accessible to a lot of people all of the time. And I think para sociality becomes a shortcut for that. And it's like, okay, well we're gonna have to put the work in differently, but we have to put the work in.
And so that's really where the idea of this like documentary style came from. And I, and like I don't, I think this has definitely been floating around you know, with other people as well. But for me, like seeing a lot of street documentary that has been done in New York City was really a strong reference point for this.
And I, I'm forgetting the name, but there's these incredible videos of RuPaul throughout like the time when he was go-go dancing and it started in the style that became a big reference point for Bremen because it is both really focused on the subject and then also really focused on the subject interacting with New York City and becoming part of that landscape.
So there's, there's points where you'll still be hearing Ru but the camera will be pointed at someone else, you know, while she's talking. And so that style of introducing the subject by showing what they care about rather than telling you why you should care about them
Sam: Mm-hmm.
Linnie: was really the thing I was trying to do here.
Sam: That's really, so I, there's like six different things I had to write out that I wanted to come back to in everything you just said. And we didn't even get to my original question of like, what were your goals for the actual, like, creative part of this, like the, the audience.
But like, I wanna start with like, how do you open a show excitingly, like people talk about how you need to just like get into the story and not bog down your audience with like introducing the players and the characters and the world and everything else. But I feel like you found a way to make that part interesting and compelling and I don't know, I'm just curious if you have thoughts more generally on how do you take that phase of any actual play and make it compelling?
Linnie: Yeah. So I would say I am still figuring it out because I think there's this, balance between, and how much do you wanna talk about what you're doing and how much do you wanna just get into it? And so the, the impulse to just get into the story makes sense.
Sam: and he is valid. Like I've
Linnie: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
Sam: that and like it's super effective. Right.
Linnie: There's a reason why it's become I think a common piece of advice because it's really effective and for sure is more effective than having an ineffectual intro.
Sam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Linnie: Like, if you're gonna, if you're not gonna be able to be engaging in the intro, it makes total sense.
Sam: if the intro's bad, you don't wanna start with the bad stuff, right? Like, but like, but there is this other question, like, the point here is like, what if intro wasn't bad? Like, right. And like maybe we're trying to figure that out. Yeah.
Linnie: And yeah, and I think a lot of it I, I have been focused on, again, I think the why of it, not the what.
And so For me it's really just about reflecting the themes of the game into the interactions that we're having and really emphasizing why those themes are important to what we're doing and why we care about them.
I mean, in, in terms of explaining the rules to people. There are absolutely actual plays that focus on the rules and that is a core part of what they're doing. And it's important
Sam: Yeah.
Linnie: For most of the actual plays that we have done you know, and certainly last Train to Brooklyn and to some extent the 10 Candles one we did are pretty unconcerned about that.
Sam: Yeah.
Linnie: The answer is I just didn't, to some extent, explain things and that
Sam: but the, but you explained the right things right? Like, because the, the core of last train to Brooklyn and Last Train to Bremen as far as I'm concerned, is like. Four band mates mess. Right? Like it's it's like their relationships and just like being messy at each other.
And like Yeah, in some ways like the mechanics of the game, the rules of the game around that. That layer, that mechanical layer fading into the background fits what the game is striving for. Right.
Whereas like if you were like making a very pedagogical, actual play of last train of breman, that's like we're really focused on explaining how liar's dice works. Right. And like, I guess there's something going on with the band. It would feel really out of place to me. Like it would not feel I in sync with what the game is trying to do.
And that AP might still be valuable because like maybe people need a video to learn how to play the game so they can go play with their friends. But like that's, it's a really, really different thing and much less, I think, sort of artistically aligned
Linnie: Yeah, I think part of it is about, I, I think there's this impulse to not trust your audience, and I'd rather have three people watch the whole thing through then five people feel like they kind of understood it, but be sort of bored the whole time. Like, you know, it's okay to make art. That's not for everyone. Um,
And I, I don't, I mean, you can even see it when you go on the actual video. I mean, there are people who are like, I don't like the shaky cam. This makes me nauseous. You know, I don't, you should put this all on sticks. And it's like, okay, there are so many actual plays on sticks. Go. Watch one of those. This just is not for you.
And so, yeah, I think it's, it's like making this actual play was for people who didn't necessarily care that things weren't revealed immediately. And the, the physical, like the fact that we are going on a journey is important, right? Like, it's like it is visually and literally saying, hold on. We're going somewhere. Just, just ride it out with us. You're going to figure out what's happening. We're not gonna leave you hanging. You were, you were coming with the band.
Sam: yeah. Great. Okay. I wanna return to my original question here of like, I feel like you've set out a lot of like production goals here. Like you've talked about a bunch of different audiences. you are talking about wanting to make something that could be a template for other actual play creators. You're making a game for each other too clearly. Like you're, you're, like making something that you're gonna enjoy, but you're also like making something for an audience at home.
And I, I wanna return to that question of like, what were your creative goals here? Not just sort of your like, technical goals. Like thematically in your mind, what is this actual play about? Ruin
Linnie: Mm mm Okay, great.
I wanna return just a little, a little bit back to what you're saying of like the audience being like there clearly being a production facing audience for this. And I mean that was intentional. I think we talk a lot about the actual audience for actual play, and I think there's a certain amount of the people who watch actual plays are also the people who make and produce them, and how much are we a hobby or not?
So like, I'm not like if it feels like it was made for my peers. In some ways it's because it was I think we have to be honest about how many people actually watch it who are audience members versus people who are the makers of the thing and how much this is in conversation with the community who makes things versus the community who just watches it.
So I think part of it, the audience was definitely for that.
Sam: I think that's a fabulous point. I think also, like as someone who I only occasionally create actual play, but I, I'm a part of that audience when I'm watching something like this, there's two copies of me watching it at once, right? like there's the version that you are speaking to there, but there's also the version who, even if I'm a creator, is just here to experience the thing, right?
So like, speak to that person.
Linnie: sure. So I, there's. There's this feeling that you get when you go to a show, and maybe this happens in different cities, but I think, and it is cliche, but it doesn't mean it's not true that it really happens in New York City in a special way. When you go to something with your friends or people who you know who are creative and you see something interesting and it's really cool and you talk about it a bit, and then you go home and it's a long subway ride because you're all riding somewhere.
And then someone starts talking about something fun or interesting or creative or or an idea that they've been bouncing around and do you spend 45 minutes talking about this thing in the subway. And you never would have sat down and hashed it out if you didn't have somewhere to go together.
And that feeling is so wonderful, and I just want people to also feel that.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah.
Linnie: And so I think that that was the reason that we wanted to put it in the subway. Not just the reason why a Last Train to Breman AP should be in the subway.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great answer.
Linnie: I would say the other half of that is like I think for me. other core of, of the, creative story here is that, you know, I did only move to New York City like four years ago give or take. So I feel like I am very much in that first, everyone is here and everyone is making things and nothing has gone wrong yet.
Sam: Hmm. Yeah.
Linnie: have gone like complicated or like logistically challenging, but nothing has really gone wrong and. Well, you know how these stories go.
Sam: yeah. Totally. Totally.
Linnie: so part of me just wants to really celebrate the creative impulse and, and that with these group of wonderful people I'm with now, and then there's a part of me in the back of my mind thinking, well, how is this gonna end? And I do not think it's gonna end as badly as, you know, the four players
Sam: as literally being dragged to hell.
Linnie: No, no. But there's a certain amount of like, I mean. It's an inevitability. People move out, people, you know, change careers, they do stuff. So there's a
Sam: Time marches on.
Linnie: Exactly. Um, Wanting to celebrate the here and now and really live in that wonderful moment.
Sam: yeah. Totally.
I wanna ask you some technical questions. Uh, so.
I watched this and I had a lot of thoughts and like strong emotional reactions to the quality level that it presents as, right? Because I don't mean this in a insulting way. I would describe this as like very lo-fi and like presenting as very unpolished in its production, right? Like it really reminded me of being in my parents' basement in 2004 with like a camcorder and like running around, like making films, right?
And I mean, you were mentioning this like some people can't watch that shit 'cause it makes them motion sick, right? Like in some ways it looks bad, right?
Um, but. But I also um, so Jesse, David Fox works for Vulture. He wrote a book about standup comedy. He's like a major standup comedy critic. And he had this podcast called The Specials that was just like, we're gonna break down one comedy hour per episode and like review it like it's a movie kind of thing.
And something that he would often say on that was like, if this were any better, it'd be worse.
And I feel so strongly about that, regarding Last Train to Brooklyn of like if you did put this on sticks, if you made it look nicer, if you like did all that, it would completely lose the like really important texture of it feeling lo-fi and unpolished that I think like is really relevant to it thematically.
And I, I'm, it's, you're nodding so much. I like humming along with this, so it feels like that was all very intentional on your part, but I just wanna hear you reflect on that.
Linnie: Yes. So I mean, I think you kind of have just covered it, but yeah, it was, it was absolutely an intentional choice. Even the lens we used was a lens that had been literally taken out of a disposable camera and stuck onto a lens cap and just screwed in. And, and you can buy these online. We didn't make that ourselves, but yeah, so they, it is, there is no re there is a lens on this camera, but it is not a real lens.
in essence
Sam: And it fucking looks like it's great.
Linnie: Those lens flares. Yeah. So I mean. Part of it was practical because that lens cap was very light and then made that camera not look like a camera.
So in terms of taking it places, no one got wigged and it was really light. And especially since our incredible camera folks we're gonna be holding that thing for upwards of 45 minutes to an hour with no, you know, obviously like breaks if they needed it, but essentially no breaks that had to be as light as possible.
So it, it was really a happy coincidence that the style we wanted also had some really practical applications that kind of sealed any cons that might have existed.
And the other thing is about it is that it has infinite zoom. So if you watch it, you'll notice there are no zoom moments in last train de Brennan. The only way you can get closer to something is by physically moving the camera.
Sam: yeah. Yeah.
Linnie: And so that really influenced the kind of the point of view that I wanted to have here. and we didn't even get into this, but like, the point of view of the camera which put a pin in, 'cause I do wanna talk about that.
yeah, and, and the, the fidelity of it, in part it was in reference to all of these home videos that you see kind of early you know, anywhere from like the eighties to the early two thousands of New York City. Like if you watch anything from Casey NY Stat, you'll also be familiar with that kind of vibe.
And so I wanted to reference that because I wanted this to feel a little timeless. And there's a reason we shot it on the trains that we did. So those trains have been in circulation since like the seventies. Uh, And actually they're being taken out of circulation this year, so we almost missed our window to film with those trains because we went, I, I must have gone to half of the trains in New York City just to like, figure out which ones made sense because some of those trains are the right color and, and vintage shall we say, don't have the right seat configurations.
and again, back to that, that idea of intent of like telling this universal creative story and then also telling our own story. It was important that it be a subway car we actually ride, but then attempt to reference other decades and put a sense of nostalgia into it.
Sam: this is such an interesting thing about nostalgia, that by capturing, like some of it feels like it's straight outta the seventies. Some of it feels like it's straight out of 1999. some of it feels very contemporary and all of those things like together make it feel timeless because it is like simultaneously in all those times. Yeah.
Linnie: I mean, it's a thing you see in, in theater a lot of, like, you wanna set something to be timeless. And so what you do is you reference a couple of, you know, very specific anachronistic devices
Sam: Yeah,
Linnie: that could still plausibly exist now, but probably existed in the past. And then you add more modern layers on top of it. And together people can't quite hold onto that in their head in the same way of where, when and where you are.
But yeah, so I, I do think about the impulse to reach back into nostalgia and to be timeless and that, that effect looks so cool. But I think it's, it's important to be kind of careful with it. Like it's not something we're using in the next AP that we filmed because I really want to be making stuff now, you know? And if you're always reaching back to the language of the past then I think you can forget that you're making stuff for now .
Sam: What were you growing up with? You know, you weren't born in the seventies, but like, were you growing up with like, the tail end of those digital home videos or were you growing up like with something else?
Like, what era is nostalgic to you that like you would be or not be pulling from on this?
Linnie: Yeah, I mean, I wasn't really allowed to watch television growing up, and not in like more in like granola way. My parents were like, here are your books, and we'll occasionally watch movies. So I think if anything it would be for like early VCR recordings, that kind of thing. So yeah, I think we had like a a VCR recorder, but I was very young, so I don't, I would never have like, physically interacted with it.
Yeah, like early two thousands, you know, like a flip phone would make me feel nostalgic. Like I, I, the internet was always an extent presence in my life. But definitely one that I had seen develop,
Sam: yeah, yeah,
Linnie: Yeah, so I, I don't think, yeah, I don't think I really referenced anything that I would personally find nostalgic like for Bremen. This was very much looking at like what people who lived in New York City before me would have found nostalgic and like reaching back into that. I think I,
Sam: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, I don't think people will include, you can help themselves in terms of like what they're pulling out in that regard. Like, like your point of reference there is still really interesting context to me.
Okay. So I wanna move on to the next big topic I wanted to get into before we kind of go like beat by, beat through the thing.
Which is I, I'm gonna groan as I say it, but like. New York City is a character in this thing, right? Like that's, you can't, like,
Linnie: No, it's fine.
Sam: that, that's just
Linnie: York city baby.
the big apple
Sam: Most people. Oh my God. Most
Linnie: like you gotta own it. You
Sam: yeah, You gotta you gotta own it. But also, like most people who try to do this, like, fuck it up big time and, and like, you didn't, like I, you really succeed at it, I think. And I'm curious to hear you've already done like some, a significant amount even of like talking about this and the, the specificity of New York to all of this.
But I'm curious to hear you like take that topic head on, what is important about. New York to you in this and like what part of New York did you wanna capture?
Linnie: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing people get wrong about New York is they think there is a New York, and the reality is there are a million different, smaller New Yorks. And the reason I think it works here is because going back to kind of the whole thesis of the thing, we're not going to the big places in New York. We're going to the ones we care about
Sam: yeah.
Linnie: and showing, showing you our New York and how that feeds into what we're doing and, and how we exist here. And then by extent, the stories that we're making.
Um, So I mean the, even the bar we come out of, like, it's never mentioned, , but like, that's my favorite bar in the city. Like, that's, it's an incredible piano bar. It's depending on how you define it, the oldest gay bar in New York City. You go and you sing show tunes and it's all acoustic. It's, it's great.
And I think it is important that we exited it from there. And I think people can feel that it was important. I don't think we have to explain it necessarily. But yeah, so it, it's just that every place we were going meant something or that we could have gone there.
And I think it's, it's, we're not trying to impress anybody with it, I think is the other thing. This is, it's just where we live. Like genuinely it's awesome, but we genuinely live here, you know?
Sam: Yeah, totally.
All right. I wanna kinda like walk through, beat by beat what this thing looks like.
So we start off and the camera starts like outside with this establishing shot of the bar, and the four of you, the main cast come out of the bar and we get y'all just like bantering as regular friends or people.
And then we go into, you like go and get pizza, you sit down and you start doing the like initial like character questions for each other and establishing those relationships.
And I found this really interesting moment where, at the start of the proper moment of play of like, let's do the character relationships, someone is like let's like stay in out of character here. Like we're not fully in character yet. And then immediately people start roleplaying in character.
And like, like that's, that's what I see as this like first act of playing with that line of like, are we in character are we out of character?
Talk to me about that section. What's important to you about that section?
Linnie: yeah, I mean, this was. this was my attempt. And what I thought was really important here was to show, not tell. So if, the thing I'm trying to do is, is make you care about the characters, the story we're telling, showing us beginning to care about them is the easiest way of doing that, and I think the most impactful.
Sam: Showing us beginning to care about them. You mean you caring about the characters?
Linnie: Yes. So showing, showing the players beginning to care about these characters. To work them out, to feel them, to put them on, to take them off, to put them on differently, to take them off again. That is part of the process. And I, it's such a, it's, it's play, right? It's half the, it's half of the game is that play, and it so often gets cut out as like, filler not important.
And you're like, that's, that's the magic of creation that they're doing right here. Right. You, you see them try something, it not work. Try something. And it really worked. Double downing on that, you know?
Sam: Yeah, I mean. So, you know, I made these Dutch Explorer after images earlier this year, and like going into those, my, my goal would Thank you. My, I'm very proud of them. The next one is gonna be fucking fantastic too.
Uh, and going into those, like, I, I had this feeling of like, like why? Like why is it so hard to tell people about what happened at your RPG table and how can I like actually succeed at doing that?
And to me, the thing that I determined was, the hard part is that any RPG story is happening on several layers at once. Right? It's happening on the like real life relationships between the players and the fictional relationships between the characters and all these, like, people's relationship to the game. Like you have to understand how the game works. And people are like doing that thing you were just describing of coming in and out of character. Like they're doing that play.
And you have to have so much context on so many different layers to be able to like figure out why a particular moment was emotional. And often like a moment is emotional because it's operating on several of those layers at the same time. Right? Like in the second after image, there are moments where it's like I am having a really strong feeling because I am thinking about my grandpa who's dying and also like in play, someone is role playing as my grandpa and doesn't know that context about me. And like all of that is happening all at once.
And I think you are doing a great job here of introducing all of those layers, the ones that are gonna be relevant for the audience at home anyway, all at the same time.
Linnie: Yeah. I mean, that's exactly.
Sam: Yeah.
Linnie: like, yeah, I, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Yeah, just I just want people to. I wanna show people why we care so much and have them care as well. And it's just so much fun. Like, gosh, we're having so much fun.
Sam: Yeah,
I mean That, that's it too.
And like I think you, you make this really smart choice in there too, of like, okay, we go from the bar to the pizza and we're just bantering as friends along the way. And then we do the round of questions and then it's like, alright, so we wanna get gelato next. And then we like show some more, like we're just walking along the street and like singing a song together and like very much back in character mode and not, or excuse me, it's it's blending together in my speech, right? Like we're back to like person real life outta character mode. And friendship mode and then like diving back into the relationship stuff
Linnie: And I think the really, the really fun thing is to me that they are separated in the AP visually sometimes, but they are not distinct.
Like. Friendship mode is happening the whole time. Like every time that I say something really nasty to Rowan, they're also having as much fun as I am slinging that back and forth with me and, and showing that we're having, yeah. Yeah.
Sam: and we, we feel good about it because you did the work to establish friendship mode up top.
Linnie: Yeah.
Sam: Yeah. Okay, so then, then there's a snake. I love you with the snake. There's, it's not Linnie, but like two of you have a snake. It's incredible. Uh,
Linnie: There, there's a whole bit we had to cut out where we bargained the snake guy down from 20 bucks. 'cause he's like two people. Is is 10, is $20, two people is $20. That's great. Yeah.
Sam: Incredible. But like that's, that's the kind of moment like, and that, that feels like straight out of like your New York City too. And it's like that combined with like, I love anytime in anything that I'm watching or making, I love it when you get a scene that serves multiple functions at the same time.
And like here, the one of those functions being friendship and the other being. New York baby, like the, like and like transition. It's like all three of those at once. Like that it, it's really effective.
Linnie: Yeah, and That was, that was a hundred percent like the direction I gave the rest of the players was like, follow your it a little bit. Like if there's a thing that you would run across the street to go check out for five minutes and we have time, let's go do that. Let's see if we can capture like that is, I don't wanna pull back from that, you know.
Sam: Well, that's actually a great lead into a question I forgot to ask earlier, which is like, how much did this feel to you like performing for the camera versus capturing what you would've been doing on a Friday night anyway? I,
Linnie: Oh, well, here's the thing. On a Friday night anyway, I would've been on camera. And that's a little bit like, maybe a little glib, but like that I think is kind of the answer. Um, I,
Sam: so in what capacity would you be on camera?
Linnie: like doing actual plays or, you know, talking to folks or something like that. But like, I don't, I think there are two parts to this answer, but the first part is because I came to this from the realm of theater and not from the realm of a player who then wants to put this online, my experience with actual play and with a lot of games is much more like this is a script rather than this is a game that I'm gonna play for myself and then put online.
So there is a little bit of, I have been learning how to play games for myself recently more than the other way
Sam: Yeah. Yeah,
Linnie: Uh, so it feels more natural for me to be playing a game on camera than it does the other way around. I think in, in first part.
And second I think the only thing that I think felt more filmed than not would be we would often go back and reshoot entrances and exits.
So not like content necessarily, but us getting up or moving, because sometimes we do it once and it was just kind of awkward. And so we wanted something smooth, so we didn't like refilm anything that was important. But I think you know, we refiled transitions and stuff like that.
Sam: Transitions are so important for this kind of thing too. yeah,
Linnie: yeah, so I think that was the only thing that, that it, it felt more like dipping in and out, if that made sense.
And it's because like, you know, the film crew was all my friends, you know, people who, you know, I had had hung out with before and stuff. So, and, and even the framing narrative of the way the camera, oh, we get to talk about point of view of camera. Great. We can bring this back in. Where the point of view of camera for a lot of aps is just like static audience portal.
Sam: it's, it is almost like, it's almost like. In the, the first like five years of film where like all they could think to do was put the camera in the audience and point it at the stage. And like, you get like a trip to the moon where like they haven't even thought of like moving the camera towards the moon. They have to move the entire set towards the camera instead, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah,
Linnie: Yeah, and, and I'm sure there's people who've done many other things, but it feels like for sure right now we're in a bit of a rut of like portal, portal to audience.
And the one direction that I gave the cast and everyone who's gonna be on camera was you are not allowed to interact with or acknowledge the audience will be watching this at all. You cannot talk to them. You cannot say, hi, look, get in the comments. Nothing. Right? You cannot acknowledge them. That's just not the way that this was gonna be framed.
Because what I wanted to do was look at other perspectives who could be behind the camera. So for the first part, it's very much the person behind the camera is the friend with the camera, it is the film crew. And that's the reason we have everyone mic up on camera, is to establish that the film crew is a physical presence in it. That they're not a floating camera, that they exist in this world.
Sam: Yeah,
Linnie: And then, I mean, we're gonna get into spoilers here, so if you haven't watched it, I highly do recommend going back and watching it.
It's an hour and 25 minutes, we cut it so short. You should watch it. But then, you know, as they transition into the train, the point of view becomes the devil. Right? And so that's why you hear Phoebe's voice a little bit at the beginning, micing us up and giving us intros so that you get that continuity between Phoebe's voice as the camera person and then Phoebe as the devil at the end, kind of mirroring this idea that we are both creator and player in this.
And so there's symmetry between the actors and the characters as well as the filming people and the devil. although I should note that like Phoebe, that we did actually split the cinematography up between two folks and Phoebe was only on the train. But like for symmetry,
Sam: yeah, yeah. yeah. yeah. my experience of watching that opening section is that like, yeah, we see everyone like mic up on camera and stuff. We know there's a film crew and so forth, but like so quickly we just like melt into this is the friend with the camera who's not talking 'cause they're kinda like behind the camera. But then like, that's me, I'm that friend, right? Like, I'm part of this film crew.
Because like the, the shakiness also like, makes it feel like POV in a way where like, you know, if we're watching Dimension 20, it feels like I'm looking through my, like peephole into the studio, right. To like see what they're doing.
Whereas this, it feels like I'm walking along with you. And I, I think that then like when later on when we get to like, oh, the, the camera's, the devil, I was like, I'm the devil. Wait, no. What's going on here? Like, it, it's such an energizing moment because it knocks me out of that.
Linnie: Yeah. May, maybe there was a bit of a thought here about what is an audience? Yeah.
And just, I, I really do think a lot about, I think in plays and theater we know the audience is gonna be there because we have invited them in to sit down and we can see them and they can see us.
And I think it's just a little bit of a different relationship when you're filming something that is so personal and yet so removed at the same time. And really thinking about like, what is the audience feeling in each moment.
Sam: Yeah. So then we transition into getting onto the train proper.
Linnie: Hmm.
Sam: This feels like a big moment because it is like, oh, it's the train. We're like paying off the title of the thing. But also like, obviously like now we're starting to play the game and like now everyone's gonna be like fully in character and just the change in physical location makes all of that super clear.
And then, you know, everyone has to get comfortable a little bit with it. But like that also mirrors what it's like, and like it allows me as the viewer to kind of get comfortable a little bit with it.
And then you play the game and I mean, there's a lot of moments in here, like, I am entertained by this section, but it also does kind of feel like one thing to me is the next like 40 minutes of it is just like playing through the main body of the game.
And I'm curious to hear you talk about that section a little bit or anything in there you found interesting before people start leaving the train because that then starts to feel like its own section to me.
Linnie: Yeah, I mean I think I'm still very much playing with how much to break things up. And I think there, I think it was important, at least for this one, that every time we're actually playing the game, we are sitting down at a table
Sam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Linnie: and you know, I think, I don't really know that much about LARPing. So I really do not want to say anything about LARPing because I know almost nothing about it.
Sam: I can say that you laed this fucking game.
Linnie: Great. Okay, cool. Like, like, and, and so I don't, it, it felt like we had already broken everything up so much and this was meant to be played both in the world of the game is written and then also how we know you were supposed to play it, like sitting at a table and you know, it felt like if we got up and moved around and acted like it was a stage, we weren't actually playing the game and we would be moving for the sake of moving.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Linnie: Because if we were playing that game for real, like we wouldn't have gotten up. And you know, I think there's definitely things I wanted to do in the future playing with breaking that up more and making it less its own separate thing.
But to some extent it's like it's a little bit of a respite. We've done so much moving and now we're gonna sit down and like, here is you watching us work through this thing we're trying to pay off.
Sam: yeah, yeah, Speaking of like, not breaking it up, you don't really cut much at all in here. Do you cut at all? Like are there any cuts?
Linnie: Uh, let's
Sam: couple maybe.
Linnie: There's maybe like 10 cuts. Um, I'd say there's. There's a couple of cuts when a camera malfunctioned and then when there's a subway door that like stayed open for like several minutes.
But no, like I think there's maybe certainly no more than 10 cuts. I
Sam: And you're, you're cutting for tech reasons, not
Linnie: yes. no no creative reasons.
Sam: I find that really interesting because you know, I'm, I'm an editor and my taste in editing is like get to the goods, like, let's like polish this, let's get it down. And like you, it's hard to do that in video, right? That's how you end up with the YouTube house style of like talking head to the camera, like Zippity Z like going along. And like that would not fit this well.
But also like I do think like this is the part of the AP that drags the most for me. And I don't, I don't know like how I would fix that, because I also think, like what you are saying, it's like, it's important, like, it, like it does add something to like not cut very much and to just hold there.
But yeah, I mean, it, it feels to use like theater terminology it feels like I'm watching a preview because you haven't done this before. You're making it up as you go. Like this, I, I don't really like watching improv comedy, because it's like. Yeah, I think once you run this a few more times, you'll like get it in pretty good shape and I'm excited to watch it then. Right. But like,
Linnie: Yeah. Yeah,
Sam: this feels a little bit like that to me.
Linnie: Yeah. I mean, half of it was, I challenge anyone to find natural cut points on a moving train.
Sam: A hundred
Linnie: So half of it was just how would you do that and it not look bad? And I mean, I'm sure there's some ways of doing it.
And the other part of it was we had kind of established this fir this perspective and every time we tried jump cutting in the middle of things, it just felt like we were cutting people off as opposed to making them sound faster, if that makes sense.
And you know, it, it's like the next AP that we filmed, it's gonna have so many cuts, it's gonna be practically exactly in the opposite direction.
And so I, the answer is it just didn't fit the language of the film. And to me, that's why it's even more important to sell people on why the thing that they're watching is an act of creation, not a final movie.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Yeah. And well, and, and this to me really goes back to that, like, if it were any better, it'd be worse feeling of like, I do think like this is what it has to be. Like, I don't think you can. I don't think you can do something that is better than this, but it is, it is also interesting to me to sort of like note the ways that this part becomes lumpy for me.
You
Linnie: Yeah, absolutely. Like you're, you're totally right. That just, I don't know. And like, please, if anyone has any ideas, let me know. I'd love to make things better, but like that's, that's the whole point of putting stuff out sometimes. But yeah.
Sam: in some ways this is the other thing that makes the first act feel so magical to me is because you figured out a way to make that first introduction to the characters and the players so compelling that like, once the like meat of play, massive air quotes is on camera, I'm invested in it even though it's a little weak because I'm so invested from the beginning.
And like most AP never gets me invested. So when they're doing this thing on camera, it's like, yeah, that's be like, all it makes me wanna do is like, be a part of it. Like to go out and play my own games because my games don't sound any better than this at home, like this, you've captured the act of playing the game really well. Like, and I love doing it, but I love doing it, not watching it. And, and yeah
Linnie: No, I, that was the goal. I mean, I think, I mean, I think we've touched on this already of just some parts of actual play are less compelling and you've gotta scaffold people through them.
Sam: yeah. So then we get to the part of the game where people start getting voted off the islands. Like they start losing their dice and leaving the train.
And that becomes really compelling both because it's sort of, you found your flow and also like, oh, people are like this. It's really happening. We're not just doing like the memories now. Like people are like going to hell
Linnie: No, no, we're on a train.
Sam: We we're on a train straight to hell baby. And like the, it's also visually we start to get to mix it up, right? Because when someone leaves the train, that does give the camera a reason to get up and like look out onto the platform and like, watch that person go and think about what's happening there.
And you get to do a bunch of those like in a row that work really well.
Linnie: They were just, yeah. Was, was there a question there or just,
Sam: no,
Linnie: compounding about how cool they are?
Sam: I, it's fucking cool. Like we're, we're pretty deep into this. I've run into this like a, like a, a movie podcast, right? Where it's like, yeah, yeah. And then this is the next thing that happens in the movie.
And when we get to something, I'll talk about it. I don't know.
Linnie: Yeah.
Sam: So people start getting off the train and then we're finally left with just the Hound, I believe is the last character and
Linnie: Copper.
Sam: We get to do the reveal of the camera is the devil.
And this is. Another interesting moment to me because I feel like it's the only moment where you changed the rules of the game substantially. Because in the game all the other players who've been voted off the island, like they come back as like a three-headed devil.
And it, it is this very, like you have to face your friends in their worst form and like try to justify them to them why you should not die basically. And like that is, I think a great decision in the play of the game.
And you're giving that up, which is on the one hand, too bad because I think it would be really cool to see here, but you get to replace it with this like incredible technical reveal that also like really energizes those last moments of it.
So I'm curious to hear you talk about that choice.
Linnie: Yeah. Part of it, logistical part of it was that. We really didn't wanna have anyone on the train car who was supposed to have gotten off the train car that we'd have to worry about filming around at the, and then it made specifically the shots of people getting off the train almost impossible to film because you wanna be able to linger on them and if they are running to get to another door, or if you cut it, it loses all the impact.
So we had to leave people on the station. Right. That was very important. So once we decide you have to do that. Getting people back on the train means a, we have to switch train cars, which visually you switch train cars because we, you know, we
Sam: yeah. Yeah.
Linnie: next train and we wait until they come back.
Visually, we were prepared to switch train cars if we had to for safety reasons. Like that was something that I never, I was very, very firm and insistent. We didn't have any restrictions that if anything made anyone uncomfortable, like we were completely free to hard cut to new train car, and we would just never explain what happened. And that was fine. That was a visual language I was interested in and would, I think would be interesting and add to something.
But if we didn't have to do it and if it felt motivated by something other than obviously some unknowable event, if it felt motivated because we had swapped, we had gotten off to get the three people back on the train car, it just, it feels like it loses a little magic
Sam: a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah.
Linnie: And I think this AP specifically, you know, we've talked about a lot about the technical and production intent of it. Wherever we could make a choice to push production and push a technological element, we were probably gonna make that
Sam: Mm-hmm.
Linnie: And I think that was just the goal of this ap. We really tried to figure out if there's a way of making it work but it was just so fun to have the devil reveal. And that was something, and that, to me, that was something that only we could have done. You know what I mean? It's like there, there's gonna be someone else who does an incredible three-headed devil and have done incredible three-headed devils, and that's gonna be the thing that they get to bring as well to this.
It's like only we could do this as we're setting it up and make it really feel great. So like, let's do the thing that only we can do right now.
Sam: I think that's a great point that like, I think it is often worth doing the thing you can only do in this piece of art because it's gonna feel special and because whatever cool idea you could have done instead, like you can save for another day and another piece. Yeah.
great. So then the hound loses to the devil, obviously. You can't beat the devil. yeah.
Linnie: it's possible.
Sam: did you have a plan there?
Linnie: Yeah. Devil was just gonna get off with the camera
and instead of filming the empty seat seats, film the empty. Um. Platform. Yeah. And we had safety buddies on all of the trains so that no player was ever gonna be left alone. So there, there will be people on that train with that player. But it was just a great like scene. It would've been a great scene where the, the hound or whoever's left gets to kick the camera off, like the player gets to kick the camera off of the ap, which is really fun.
Um,
Sam: been beautiful.
But that's not what happens. We, we kick off the Hounds the camera stays on the subway car and continues to power forwards while this incredible song
Linnie: Isn't it great?
Sam: It's so good. Talk to me about this song. Talk to me about the song.
Linnie: Honestly, I work with so many incredible fucking talented people. Just, they're like, they're so great. So Rowan McStay actually wrote this and they are the Hound. So
I.
Sam: it too?
Linnie: Yeah. their, one of their friends, Imani actually did the guitar for it. So they, they're singing and writing.
Yeah. So it's one of those, the great thing about doing fun projects is that you get to make your friends do fun things on the fun projects. And rowan has written so many incredible songs, and they have not yet put them out into the world. And so I do like to joke that I made this entire thing to force them to release a song to the world. So I have at least one thing that I can show people.
But it was always like a secret hope of mine that they would write something for this. Uh, but they actually like suggested it and they're like, oh, would you want me to? And I'm like, are you kidding? Of course, your stuff is great.
Sam: And when was that happening? Like did was the song, did you have that in Pre-Pro? Was it after the thing
Linnie: No, we shot and filmed and released this in two weeks.
Sam: my God. What, like, did when, how long was like pre-production, does that include
Linnie: Oh, pre-production was, no, God no. Are you kidding? No. Pre-production was months.
Sam: Well that, so that's what I'm asking is like in the
Linnie: oh no. The song was written in a, like, no. So the song was written after the thing was finished.
Sam: Got it.
Linnie: So they also wrote that in like two weeks.
Sam: that two weeks and recorded it. Yeah. Incredible.
Linnie: Actually. Incredible.
Sam: it's perfect for the moment because it rides the line between like. Sad and like melancholy and like that, that kind of like little bit of devastation at the end of the, like, deaths of these characters.
But the like, the deaths are like metaphor for the, like dissolution of this band or this friendship, right? And it, I think it it's more about capturing that feeling than about like, someone's going to hell. It's about the like, wow, doesn't it suck when you, like you have this, a big falling out like this is what I get from it.
And then we get to watch as everyone reunites, like the whole crew we get to see like reuniting on a platform. And then you all go to a diner together and we like go into the diner and see everyone like hanging out at night. And in a perfect world, the sun would be rising. But it's nice it's still late night at
Linnie: It rose , like an hour after that. Um, it almost was there, but.
Sam: In, in some ways. I, I like it at night. And I'll get into that in a second, but I, I wanna hear you talk about that, like, ending sequence too. like I've been framing this whole series on actual play around, like I normally the show is like, we pick one mechanic and break it down as deep as we can. Right? And I've been framing this series around let's pick one moment from an actual play and break that moment down as deep as we can.
And we've done a lot of moments in this and in my mind that is because like, the moment I wanted to pick from this is getting to the diner at the end. Like that, that moment blows me away. And I think that you need the buildup and the context of everything else to get to it.
So, yeah. I, I just wanna hear you talk about like that ending and what it means to you and what your
Linnie: Yeah, the, the moment at the diner was, if not the first visual, I think the second visual after I was like, this happens on a train. And then second that, so you, you know, you absolutely have picked it out that like, that was the thing that I had, that I knew we had to get to. And so everything else, which train we picked, everything was how do we get to that moment?
I think in part it serves the same function as getting up from the table. I think if I'm trying to capture something that is this process of creation, beginning to end, ending it on the story is not the end of the creation process.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah.
Linnie: And so grabbing that, I think there's also this just. I've also spent a lot of time building up, as we said, like this friendship layer.
And if we end on everyone is dead and in hell, we have not resolved that. We have not finished that story. Also, again, if I'm trying to, if I'm trying to get everyone to feel this, this thing that you feel when you're together and it's late at night and you're working on this thing and you've made something fucking incredible, like you have to see us, you have to see, and you have to see
Sam: the cast party.
Linnie: You gotta see everyone. And like it's, it was really important to me that it wasn't just the players, it was the safety crew, the swings, everyone behind the scenes. Like that, there was a whole creation process and every single person had the same amount of fun doing it, you know? It wasn't just the people you're seeing on screen, like the creation process is everyone who is making that thing happen.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it works. I think it's beautiful. I mean, like, I've been saving this, the whole episode, but like, to me, what last train of Brooklyn is about is being 22 and doing your best.
It's being in a group of friends and like simultaneously it is about like the, the like elation of that, prepping to go out and then like, enjoying each other's company and like getting pizza late at night and getting gelato and like coming home from like whatever fucking thing we were doing on the town and staying up until three in the morning at the diner and all of that.
And it's also about the like gossip and knives that you're stabbing into each other's backs. 'cause you haven't grown up enough. Like you, you're still like, just mean to each other and like you're, they all of that like that feeling.
And then for me, the visual language of the film, like that nostalgia element of it that we were talking about before and that camera in particular, which is so of my childhood, like hits that feeling of like, it's not that this is about being 22, it's about remembering being 22. It's about re remembering and like capturing that feeling of like remember what it was like the, the pain and the like, beauty and the love of like, all that community that you, you had like back when I, in 2014, like lived in a house with my boys and we played magic and we went out to the club and all, all of that.
And like that timelessness, that nostalgia, like, I think adds to that layer. Like I think the themes of the game combine with the friendship layer you have built. Like neither one of those layers by itself is like actually capturing the truth of this experience. It's like the putting them in conflict with each other in like tension with each other that like, makes it pop and gives it like an emotional depth that like, makes me feel like, yeah, that's exactly what it was like.
And then the song at the end, the melancholies of it, is underlying that nostalgia, right? Of like, I don't have that anymore. Like, that's gone. Like the thing that I lose as an audience member in the moment when the Hound gets off the train is like, I've grown up, you know, like that the, I've moved away from New York. Like I, I remember what it was like to go to the diner to go to the cast party, to flirt with my friends back in high school after we like did the theater show or whatever. But like, I'm 35 now and I'm married. Like, I'm really happy.
I, I don't know, like I, I feel like you just you've captured all of that so well, and that like in, in all of that, the like friendship layer of this is the, A story, right? Like in like the B
Linnie: Oh, for sure.
Sam: is all, all that part with the lumps in it, right? Like is actually playing the game. And like you, you did great work with that, but it's all in service of capturing what it feels like to be the community of people making the thing.
And you know, I had spent all this time before I watched this making these after images and trying to think like, how do you capture the feeling of being at the table and being a part of that creative process? Like that to me is the magic of role playing games more than like whatever fucking story we're telling.
Like, yeah, great. Like I like Worlds Beyond Number. Sure. I like, I've had emotional moments like listening to the like narrative fiction that people are improvising using actual play. But like the beauty of role playing games, the thing I want to capture on camera that I think actual play is, i, I want it to do is this, is like capture that feeling of friendship and creation and collaboration.
Great job.
Linnie: Oh, thank you. Yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm just, yeah, it's exactly what I wanted people to feel when they watched it. Just to, to understand the thing we're trying to do. And it's great to hear that I, I have at least made you feel that.
Sam: Yeah,
I just think it's incredible. I mean, there's no question for you there, but I do like to end with like, what do you wanna end on? Like, do you want to talk about 10 candles and what's next for you? Do you wanna like, emphasize a call to action for other creators? Maybe both. Like what what do you want to go out on? Here.
Linnie: Oh, okay. What do I wanna go on? I feel like we, we could still keep talking about this. That's, that's always the way,
Sam: Oh, Hundred percent. But like, wow.
Linnie: you only have
so
Sam: than I would like to, to, yeah. That, that's the thing. Eventually you grow up and like time is ephemeral and like,
Linnie: No. I mean, there's been times where I'm like, oh, I'm so sad we didn't get that shot. And it's like, no, no, no. We didn't get that shot. And that means we do not have to argue about whether we cut it or edit it. It's a gift.
Yes. So broadly speaking, yeah, you kind of nailed it. I think very much like I made this. You know, as you said, I'm 28, like in between my early twenties, and then also knowing what's to come. And so it, it feels like, you know, a little bit mourning what has passed and then also wanting to leave myself something to remember as I go forward into the future. Um, Yeah.
Sam: I kind of mentioned this earlier too, but another thing that I think you couldn't make this at any other age because like for me at least, 28, 26 maybe was like, when I was like, oh, I'm good at stuff now. Like, like, you're like good
Linnie: It's so
Sam: to make something like this. Right?
Like when you're, if you're 22 and you're trying to make this, you're gonna fuck it up. And like, but, but you're also still close enough to that, like early twenties feeling to be able to capture it really well and I, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's great and, and rare.
Linnie: Yeah, I, I mean, I think that would be the main thing I'd want anyone else to take away from this is like, this works because I'm bringing, and my team is bringing, like what is special about us and what is special about what we wanna say right now in the moment.
And I think for actual play, which is such an entwined process with creator and creation, the, the more that you lean into who you are and what you specifically and no one else can bring to what you're making, the better your stuff is gonna be.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah.
Linnie: Yeah. And I mean even, even the stuff we have coming out, I'm like, is this it just it, it does feel like last train to Brooklyn was a hell of a first swing. And so now I'm like, okay, what else have I got in the chamber? And the answer is a lot of stuff. It's gonna be great.
Sam: Love to hear it. Linnie, thanks so much for coming on Dice Explode and letting me just like gush at you about your thing. And
Linnie: no. Any time.
Sam: much behind the scenes about it like that. Yeah.
Linnie: Yeah, no, anytime.
Sam: And I also like, I really just wanna emphasize the call to action to everyone else. Make stuff like this. It's so cool. It's so great. Like you can do it.
Linnie: It's so much fun. Yeah, absolutely. Do it.
Sam: Thanks again de Lenny for being here. You can watch Last Train to Brooklyn on YouTube Where you can also check out Twice Rolled Tale's new actual play of 10 candles.
Thanks to everyone at Sports Dice Exploder on Patreon. As always, you can find me on Blue Sky at Dice Exploder, or on the dice Exploder discord. And you can find my games@tonal.itch.io. Our logo is designed by Sporgory. Our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Gray.
And our ad music is Lily Pads Bumma Boy,
travis Tester and thanks to you for listening. I will see you next time.