Listen to this episode here.
One of my favorite parts about these episodes where I'm highlighting a single moment from an actual play is how many practical lessons I can bring back to my own table by going beat by beat through a significant moment in play. And today, Maia Wilson has brought a particularly significant moment from her show Maia's Game Room in which one character, in desperate straights, is pressured by an NPC to pay for his help with sex.
It's an intense moment. It may not be for you (and this episode may not be, either). But I think there's no better way to learn about how to establish good communication and try to keep people safe at the table than by breaking down a specific example. Plus, when you get this right like I think Maia and her table do, the results can be cathartic and compelling. Let's get into it.
Further Reading
Maia's Game Room: Electric State, episode 5
The Battle of Primrose Park: Playing for Emancipatory Bleed in Fortune & Felicity by Jonaya Kemper
Socials
Maia on Bluesky
The Dice Exploder blog is at diceexploder.com
Our logo was designed by sporgory, our ad music is Lilypads by Travis Tessmer, and our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Grey.
Join the Dice Exploder Discord to talk about the show!
Dice Exploder on Patreon
Transcript
Sam: Hello and welcome to another episode of Dice Exploder. Each week we take a tabletop mechanic and give it a ring to check in and see how it's doing. My name is Sam Dunnewold, and my co-host today is Maia Wilson. Here she is introducing herself.
Maia: Okay. Hi, my name is Maia and my podcast is Maia's Game Room.
And the first two anthology seasons are The Electric State and upcoming is Star Forged which is a sci-fi campaign. It's gonna be a co-op game with me and a good friend of mine, and we're really excited for it.
Sam: This is another episode about actual play where we're gonna set aside mechanics for the weekend, instead go deep on a single moment of play.
And one of my favorite parts of this format has been how when we take a clip, go through it beat by beat in slow motion, and talk about how everyone was feeling in the moment. There's a lot of practical lessons to learn there that we can bring back to our own tables.
And this episode is in my mind primarily about that, specifically in the context of safety and communication because Mia brought in a very intense moment from Mia's Game Room Electric State, season one, episode five, in which one character in desperate straits is pressured by an NPC to pay for his help with sex.
I wanna be really upfront about this. It's an intense moment. It is certainly not for everyone, and this episode won't be either. We aren't gonna play a clip. But the whole point here is to walk through a description of this moment in detail.
This scene is the kind of thing that could go terribly wrong. Not just infection, but in real life at the wrong table to get this kind of thing right, you really wanna play with people you trust to have your back. You get everyone on board with heavy topics and potential trouble in advance. When shit gets intense you check in frequently and often with everyone at the table, including players who aren't directly involved. And you check in afterwards too.
And if you do all that. I think you can create some really compelling experiences listening to these two women roleplaying out This scene as heavy as it gets is gripping, moving, and unsettling in what is, to me, at least a good way.
So if you wanna do this kind of thing at your table, take a listen. Let's see how it's done. Let's learn from it. Thanks to everyone who Sports Dice Exploder on Patreon. And here is Maia with an intense moment from Maia's game room.
Maia. Welcome to Dice Exploder. I'm so excited to have
Maia: Thanks for having me.
Sam: So I wanted to get started what is your background with actual play? How did you get into this? How did you like, learn what actual play was and, you know, how did you learn what tabletop RPGs were? Like, what, where are you coming from?
Maia: Okay. Surprisingly, I haven't been in the TT RPG space that long. I found it all in March of 2023.
Sam: Oh, wow. That's really not long.
Maia: And I've tried 44 systems at this point. Um, So just to give you a little idea of my brain. But it was like um, a work thing where, you know, they fly everybody in and there's like workshops and stuff like that. There was a point where there was like a breakout session where it was like during the evening time, people can go golf or they can go out to eat with, you know, different employees and stuff.
And one guy was like, I'm gonna run a D&D game. I was like, you know what? I've always heard of it. I heard it in like Stranger Things and then, so I joined the game. I had no idea what I was doing. But I did have fun though, so that kind of like really kicked things off for me. I was like, oh my God.
And then from there I learned that you could play the game online and then I found accidentally a Pathfinder game. And then I was like, oh, okay, so there's more systems out there. And then I found that like, oh, these are too crunchy,
Sam: Yeah.
Maia: are way crunchy. I was like, I went from D&D to Pathfinder not the way I should have went, but because I found Pathfinder, I realized there was more systems then I was like, I love urban fantasy and I like modern times and stuff like that. And then I started looking around and then I found City of Mist. And then City of Mist led to other games. And here I am 44 systems later having a great time.
Sam: yeah, so how does actual play fit into that story?
Maia: I think I was just looking on YouTube to see like examples of play. I, I had, I hadn't heard of anybody. Like I didn't know who Critical Role was or Dimension 20, like I just found Ttrp Gs in general.
And so I was looking for examples of play and I saw that. Oh, okay. So people are like recording themselves to doing this. This is cool.
Sam: So what is it that you love about actual play? Like at, at some, so you know, you're watching actual play, you're getting in there, like something about this medium. It feels like you must have loved so much that you wanted to devote a lot of your own time to participating in it and like tell, tell me about that.
Maia: Yeah, I think I love the, again, back to fantasy high season one for Dimension 20. I really loved the comedy aspect. I loved the improv, and I really loved like the chemistry that everybody had together, and it just seemed like, oh my God, they're just having so much fun telling these stories together and it immediately hooked me.
And so after like a friend reached out to me, they joined a City of Missed game of mine and just told me. Hey, I really like your voice. And I was like, thank you. Um, I think you'd be really good for actual play. And then, so we talked for like a full hour and he was like, do you wanna start like a YouTube channel together? And, and I'll get a couple other GMs and we'll try this out. And so that's how like my actual play journey started last year in February.
But then also, I was listening to world's Beyond Number and was heavily inspired by the sound design and editing. And I just love how it kind of just pulled you in. You put on some headphones or some earbuds and you're immediately like, the world and the music and the ambiance just washes over you and you are immediately transported.
So I had like light editing experience. And so I was like, oh, let me give this a try. And so I downloaded Hindenberg Pro and got some player is together. And I really love the premise for The Electric State. And so I said, hey, you guys, this game is pretty dark, but I love, I love this type of stuff. Should we make this actual play?
Had a really thorough session, zero. And I was like, Hey, we're gonna be serious about this, you guys. This is not your average kind of livestream actual play. It's gonna be edited. We're gonna take out stuff and, and for story. And so yeah, that first season is like, how can I put my best foot forward
Sam: Yeah,
Maia: it's nowhere near the editing is world Beyond number, but it's like me trying my best. And so yeah, it was a good learning experience for sure.
Sam: yeah. Well listen as. An editor of 15 years who has done a lot of like fiction, sound design, and narrative podcasts. You've done a great job. Like I, I, full disclosure, I have only listened to the episode that we're here to talk about today, but like it felt in the ballpark of world's beyond number.
Which is, I, I mean, maybe a part in a testament to how much, a little bit goes like a long way. Like editing is so helpful for these things. But I also, I think you're doing a great job.
Also as an editor of 15 years, I know how much work that takes. Um, and, and I am curious to hear you talk about like. It sounds like you kind of dove in like, this is what we're gonna do, we're gonna make it seriously, and maybe only then found out exactly what that was gonna mean in terms of time commitment. Um, But has there been a moment where you have reckoned with what you have signed up for here?
Maia: Yeah. So when you say reckon, you're like, I've accepted this truth
Sam: Yeah. Or, or like, or like, been like, oh shit, I've made a huge mistake. You
know, like whatever that process has looked
Maia: yes. I felt that towards the end of season one. I was editing and I was like, I can feel myself not liking this anymore. There was so much time, and as you know, like a one minute clip, editing can take like 30 minutes to two hours and, and you're just
Sam: For a well sound
Maia: Yeah. And you're like, oh my God. Finally done. And, and then you look at your waveforms and you're like, oh, one minute. And you're like, Jesus Christ.
So I was like, I don't want to hate this because I do like the creative edit side of things, like adding in all that cool stuff. And I, I could feel it like kind of creeping in a little bit towards the end of season one. I was like, okay, so what do I need to do? Because this is still just a passion project. I am editing it on my own. But I still want this to sound, you know, good and, and edited well. So I decided like, I'm going to step back a little bit. I think certain scenes can just sit and have, you know, some light ambiance and it will be fine. A lot of people don't notice a lot of the stuff that you're editing anyway.
Sam: I have found it to be a really tricky balance. 'cause on the one hand there are plenty of people where like, if I didn't edit this show like Dice Exploder of just two people talking, they would prefer that. They really just want to hear everything. They don't want anything cut out 'cause they want more time just hanging out with you. And that's not what I, like. Some people really, really appreciate how tight I edit this show, for example.
But then when you get into the sound design and fiction podcasting, in my experience there's a lot of, like the last 10% of Polish takes 90% of the work. But like people do notice, right? Like,
Maia: you think,
Sam: yeah, yeah. Like in my experience, the difference between listening to an episode of my year's game room and listening to an episode of Worlds Beyond number those feel close, but like Worlds Beyond Number feels ahead, which I think we, we agree on.
Maia: Of
Sam: But it also, in my experience as an editor closing that last gap is like full-time job number of hours, And like, I think most people can tell that difference, right? But they can't put their finger on any one individual thing because the like one individual thing probably don't make a difference, but they add up to, I don't, I did a whole episode on making a, a podcast or a D&D show for the try, guys, and people can hear me rant more about that there, but I don't know. It's just, it's tough making these shows
Maia: It, it is. I understand you there. I think what I mean is like, I think a lot of people are appreciative of just like basic edits. Like can we hear you clearly? Do you have good mics? Are you kind of cutting out anything that, doesn't push the story forward,
And then I think the sound design side of things is just a cherry on top, which I don't think we need, per se. But I think it, it elevates a game a hundred percent.
Sam: Let's move on from here. ' I wanna talk about the electric state as a game, so I know I'd say a medium amount about the electric state and I have not played it. I'd love to hear you tell me both, like what is the pitch for the electric state and then why did you choose it as your sort of inaugural game here?
Maia: Yeah. So. In the world of the electric, say RPG, it's an alternate 1997 America. And so everything has been split into these new nations after decades of civil war. Society is rotting thanks to neuronics. It's this hyper addictive like VR tech. So people plug into these virtual worlds called neuro scapes, and they put on these kind of helmets that are called neuro casters, and they vanish into digital bliss.
Like people will stay in these and you'll see like the art is so powerful and evocative and people, their bodies just start to become emaciated and then eventually skeletons who still have these neuro casters on. And so the landscape is like this mix of war ruins, abandoned tech, corporate control from a company called Century, and it's this road trip.
So players are travelers, that's what they're called. And they're just ordinary people, kind of like trying their best to resist this neuro addiction. Everybody has their own goals, dreams, flaws, and it's really not about the destination. Like I can't stress that enough. It's really like you have A to B, but the story takes place in between that.
And so yeah, so that's what this season one is about, just following a group of travelers going from LA to San Francisco, and they all have their own grief or guilt or some type of purpose why they're all traveling together and why they need to get to San Francisco.
Sam: Cool.
Maia: Mm-hmm.
Sam: Okay. In more detail, what do we need to know about the characters or what has like just happened in the series before we get to the moment that we're here to talk about today?
Maia: so we have Catherine and she is on a revenge mission to confront and ultimately take out the cult leader who she believes is the cause of her son's death.
Sam: Mm-hmm.
Maia: And then we have Luke, who is on the run in his own way away from his father, who is this crazy political leader in San Francisco. Once he moved to LA he became friends with Catherine. And so he decided, I'm going to come with you on this trip back to San Francisco because I know the city. That's where I'm from.
And then we have Ryan who is running away. There is this kind of a teenage program that the evil corporation century asked teenagers to come and work and then they'll send money back home to their families. He backed out of the deal after signing the contract, and so now he is on the run.
So the setup before this clip is. all the player characters are in Bakersfield and their car needs work in order to leave. And because of the nature of this world now, kind of the pre apocalypse people are on their owns, you know, worrying about number one, there's a lot of bad people in this world. And so in order to get the help that they need they run into a gang and so that's, that's what's happening right now.
Sam: Yeah. okay. So I'm gonna pause here and just remind listeners of the content warnings that I included at the top of this episode for what's coming next. And I also really, really, really encourage people here to like, pause this episode that you're listening to and go listen to the actual Maia's Game Room episode here. The episode is season one, episode five, the Cost of Escape Electric State RPG.
The clip that we are gonna break down here starts around 36 minutes, and then plays out for about 15 minutes through the end of the
Maia: Mm-hmm.
Sam: I'm gonna go so far as to put an ad break right here so that you either have to listen to ads or you have to go listen to this clip. But yeah, that's what's coming up. We're gonna break down what actually happens at this clip.
So the first thing that happens is the group approaches the car shop, right? Luke is kind of going in hot a little bit and he's looking for repairs. And I'm curious to just start out the gate with like. What have you prepped here? Like what are you expecting out of this scene? Like what are you thinking as you're going into recording this moment?
Maia: I think, 'cause at the top of each episode I go, here is the goal for the episode. You know, I don't script out the episode, but I just know where we need to be by the end of it. So I'm like, Hey you guys, we gotta get outta Bakersfield. So whatever you gotta do. And then I just let them know that as kind of like a production note.
And so I just, I knew that, I knew that they needed to get out and they knew that they needed to get out. And so they knew that there were men here at the body shop, the auto shop for their car. And so this was literally the only way that they could get out. And they, and you need to drive too. So they gotta get their car fixed so that you, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Sam: Yeah, so Luke is coming in hot and he's like, we need help. And the goons are like, well, well, well, if it isn't someone who needs help that we could take advantage of. And they kind of initially fight with him a little bit.
Is anything interesting happening in here for you? Like this, this feels like just sort of generic, here's just what we're dealing with here, like scene setting. Like when I'm G Ming, this does not feel like it's the hard part.
Maia: No, this is just me thinking like, okay, so how would these NPCs act in this type of setting? Like, they would be assholes, like they don't care. Like they'll try to get one over on. You try to get more than than they deserve. So just trying to role play that as best as possible. That's the best thing.
I mean, that's at the top of my mind.
Sam: and do you know like their leader is named Rusty and he's in the back and he's gonna come out?
Maia: I'd have to check my notes. He might be in my notes. That might have been a NPC that came up in the moment.
Sam: Yeah. And like, you know, the place we're going in this scene is like the leader of these guys. Rusty is gonna basically be coercing cath
Maia: Mm-hmm.
Sam: offering sexual favors for payments. Like are we anywhere close to you? Like thinking that could be something that happens in this scene, or is that something that comes later?
Maia: No, this was all, I wanna say this entire scene from this clip that we're talking about, this was all play to find out. This was not in my notes at all. this came up in the moment, and it just, I'll, I'll have these kind of powerful ideas that come in my head. And I'm not trying to be like weird or anything like that. It's just, I think that this is what would happen in this type of story like this. It's crazy, but like
Sam: It feels so right. Like it really does. Listening to it, you know, you picked this moment and you send it to me, and I was like, Ooh, is this gonna, this is gonna be, what am I getting myself into?
And then I listened to it and I was like, oh yeah, that's, of course, that's what happens. Like it does, it feels right.
Maia: it feels right and wrong at the same time. Me
Sam: yeah. I mean, it feels right for the story and extremely icky.
Right. Um, before we kind of like get into the play by play there, I'm curious, like, what have you talked about with your players in advance of this moment in regards to, you know, sexual assault or, sexual coercion as content that might come up during play?
Maia: Yeah. So it wasn't that specific. But it's probably good to have that side of things in your session zero documents. They're living documents and I think, you know, always add to it.
We had our session zeros and everybody discuss their lines and veils. This wasn't anybody's line or veil, so I kind of knew in the back of my mind that content like this, at least for us, was Akay. But as we'll discuss later, still, we took a break because of how gross we felt. But um, I knew going forward that like everybody is fine with content like this.
Sam: Yeah. And I think it's like something I really wanna underline is how when I'm listening to this, I'm captivated by like, the energy of what is happening between you and the player playing Cath, but I'm also cognizant of like, how are the players of Luke and Ryan feeling in this moment? You know, like
Maia: oh.
Sam: and at like, that's something where it doesn't necessarily make it into the show, and I don't know, I think in some ways like the, the fact that the show got published at all and no one is like talking shit about you publicly, like means everyone like consented and
Maia: Yeah,
Sam: But, and so that in and of itself, like helps me kind of let go of that anxiety by the time I'm done with the, the episode. But it is something that's in my head that feels unique about actual play here. That we're, we're not just talking about like, like there are people here who, who would have a harder time just like turning this scene off if they didn't want to be a part of it than like the audience.
Maia: Yes. Yes. And I think I add a little clip at the end of the episode too just to show us like not in the moment, like out of character. And I think that helps if people stick around that long just to show that like. Hey, we're also human too, and this is how we actually felt. And it's okay. We, we broke out a character, just to let you know, everything's all good on our end. If people are wondering like, oh my God, are they okay? Like, this is crazy,
Sam: Yeah, I remember that now. I, I was just, I listened to the whole episode a few months ago when we first started talking about this, and then just today re-listened to it and did not get to that clip.
But now that you like bring it up I remember it when I was originally listening to the full episode and I was like, oh, thank God.
Like, like it's, it's such an, it's like almost like aftercare, like debriefing, droll, not just for y'all as players, but for the listener. Like, it feels so helpful to do. Like, it made me want to, you know, what they, what they do with like 13 reasons why, and they put the like, don't kill yourself flick warning up in the front of it. Like, I almost want those episodes to instead end with like, we're cool guys. Like,
Maia: yes. We, We, have said, the director said, cut. We're all outta character and we are. Okay. Yes.
Sam: Actually, I think even on that show, that's what they ended up doing. When that show sort of like got a bunch of flack for depicting um, teen suicide. they had some of the actors like do a little PSA about it that they played at the
Maia: they had to, I never, I didn't watch the show, but I did hear about the PSA that they had to do.
Sam: Yeah. And I, listen, that's a whole other can of worms, but like, I think here in particular in the form of actual play, it's really nice to have
Maia: Yeah, I found that I like to add little tags at the end, like that little audio tags because because I take these so seriously that I'm like, Hey you guys, before we get started, you guys are in character. So like minimize out of character talk. So you won't hear a lot of out of character talk not a lot of table talk like in a, like a normal live stream.
And so I kind of add that in at the end. Just be like, yeah, we're still here. We're okay.
Sam: Yeah.
Maia: once we're in it, we're in it.
Sam: I mean, I kind of like that even as, if like you were making a really lighthearted show, there's still something about that that's like we're doing the curtain call, right? You see the actors come out on stage and like, they take their bows and like we can be like, oh yeah, like that guy isn't a murderer. Like that guy,
like my partner just assistant directed the mouse trap, right? And like the guy comes out and we're all like, you did a great job, pretended to be a murderer. And now we all like go into the lobby and like, that moment feels really
Maia: It's that kind of thing for sure. Mm-hmm.
Sam: But we're not to that yet. We're, we're just getting started here.
So Luke has come in first. He's a little bit hot. The goons are kind of like, no, we are in charge here. Fuck you. And then kath and Ryan kind of like pull Luke back a little bit.
And then the goons notice, Ryan, and they notice not just what seems to be like an expensive camera, but also notice, oh, he's that guy from a wanted poster that we have.
Maia: Yes. So I just wanted to raise the stakes a little bit cause I know like. it's all play to find out. But I have an outline of like, everybody's backstory, and I'm like, okay, hmm. I'm gonna introduce this because I'm all about, like, I'm gonna throw another wrench in here. I know that I told you guys need to get outta here, but along the way I'm going to throw like, horrible stuff at you guys and see how you handle it.
And so I was like, I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm just thinking like, okay, he's on the run. I bet that they have some type of wanted poster or there's something, his face is out there. There's no way that century is not like putting the feelers out.
Sam: It's. such a smart thing to do. I think I did a whole episode on PBTA style playbooks with Mo Poplar last year. And the thing we talked about in that episode was how like when I pick the werewolf playbook, that's me as a player saying I want to have trouble keeping the werewolf inside of me. Like that's the thing that I'm excited to do right now.
And I feel like character backstories work exactly the same way, right? Like if you've made a character that's on the run, that's you saying, I want people to be chasing me. I wanna have to hide. I want this to be a, a problem for me. I want my past be catching up to me.
And anything, like your job as another player at the table is to look for that kind of stuff and like. Poke those people, to answer the call that that person is putting out there with their
Maia: There, there's another thing I, I read it somewhere about like it being called knives. Something like that. Like players are giving you knives to stab them with. I think, I think I'm along the lines of that, and I was like, yeah, these are all the things that they're like, Hey, you can poke me with this.
Sam: Yeah. And so you introduced the Wanted poster and then haggling kind of begins, right? Because these guys are clearly in the position of like, we don't want. The company coming in here and fucking up our, the good thing we got going, but we do want to milk you for everything we can get out of you. And like we completely have you over a barrel. You are in a lot of trouble. And we're gonna exploit that as much as possible.
And what I love about that is that, first of all, ah, those, those guys are at a tight spot. Like, like, it's like great drama, but it also points to tension within the goons, because they have this tension of like, wanting to get as much out of these people as they can, but also really not wanting the company to come in. It's a, a thing that like, immediately maybe there's like an in a player could exploit there, but even if there's not, even if the players are just gonna be completely over a barrel, it points at like a whole social system, like a, like, like multiple people and relationships going on behind in their whole setup.
Maia: yeah, we're all just rats in a barrel trying to crawl eighth out, like in just at different levels. So it's that type of thing
Sam: and then Luke and Ryan just like run, right? They're, they're just like, we're out.
Maia: Smart
move.
Sam: Smart move, but also like I mean, they leave Cath all alone. Like you even give her an out, right? You're like, oh, are you sticking around? And she's like, well, I think I wouldn't have noticed until it was too late.
And that's really interesting. And also like is a nice moment of her as a player, again, doing that thing of like stating, no, I think this is interesting, like I want to stay in this difficult position and see
Maia: Yeah. Oh, that was Meg. That's her play style.
Sam: Mm-hmm.
Maia: She loves that stuff. And so she, like, there's everything that in, that's in the clip is fully enthusiastic consent on her end. Like, yeah, she eats this stuff up. And so she was like, no, I'm gonna stay. Like, and I like that they ran this. It's very like in character.
And this is a game where you have like nine hp so you're like your regular human, so yeah, you're gonna run. And so I, I like that those kind of like cowardly moments where you're like, yeah, I'm going to, it's, you know, self preservation.
Sam: So this is the point where I would start checking in out of character, like at my table, because on the one hand I have a similar play style to make, right? Like, I want to like, get into the hottest water I possibly can and like ruin my character's life.
But it is also the case that like there's not another obvious way out of this town. And you as the GM and the like producer of the show have said we need to get out of this town, folks. And so that is a little bit like putting her between a rock and a hard place, like logistically as a human being.
Are you thinking about that in this moment? Like, I, I guess I'm asking like, do you stop and check in and out of character at this point, or are we just all good still?
Maia: We are still all good. I of course will stop if anybody's uncomfortable with anything or they're confused and it would all be cut. Like everything that is in the episode, everybody is okay with. Like, I would never keep something in that nobody is okay with. So yeah, up until this point, we are still a go.
Sam: on that note I don't want to get into the details of anything that was cut because if there was anything that was cut that didn't make it to air, like, I want to like, have respect for the people who didn't want that to air. But I'm curious, like was there stuff that was cut here? How much, if so?
Maia: There was nothing that was cut here.
Sam: Okay. I mean, that checks out.
Maia: But, and not just Meg. 'cause other people could be uncomfortable with these situations. Like the other players could have been like, I'm actually not okay with this. I feel really uncomfortable. So can we pause or fast forward, I would've been like, you got it, Akay. We will montage past this or whatever.
It's audio only, but you can't see everybody's face like eating popcorn off to the side, listening to this. So yeah.
Sam: Did you have like a, after the fact, after the scene is over did you have like an explicit conversation of like, Hey, does anyone wanna go back and redo that? Or does anyone wanna like, leave any of that out or anything like that?
Maia: No, I didn't, didn't have any of those conversations. That's a good idea though. I should start doing that. Yeah.
Sam: And I, I think you get the, like, implicit consent of everyone in the kind of clip that we were talking about earlier of like after the fact everyone is like, oh my god, you know, and we could like see everyone as players. And so I'm not trying to like hold you accountable here, you know, you know.
Um, But I also I dunno. I, I think being explicit is nice.
Maia: yes, there. There's just those moments where you're just like it it's probably part of you. You're in character. I'm in character as the NPC, and you're just so in it.
Um, and those kind of like those other things where it's like good to have a, a producer off to the side to be like, Hey, we're gonna pause here just so that we can make sure, there's like that stuff that would be helpful if someone can take on that load.
For right now if you're kind of just like a single person, like how I'm doing it, then be very thorough in your session zeros, and then you can have those pauses and breaks, but what in the heat of the moment, it's harder to stop because there's a lot going on as you're GM in, you're thinking about what's gonna happen next? What's happening right now? Where do they need to go? You're also like the producer, so you're like, hmm, that doesn't move the story forward. Gonna cut that later. Like, there's so much going on in your head.
So yeah.
Sam: Yeah. And it, I think it's easier when, if you have to do that many jobs, you can do them sequentially instead of at the same time. Right. Like, it's easier to like check in with people after the fact than check in in the moment sometimes.
And actually there's a piece of advice here I would I think people could take back to their own tables, which is if you are not in a scene you can pick up some of the slack here. Her, right.
Like if I'm at the table with my friends Maia and Meg at Maia and Meg are like having this intense scene, like one of the things that I'm gonna try to do is take on the role of looking for moments where maybe they need someone for me to like pause and check in on, you know?
Maia: Yeah. Yeah. I like that idea 'cause there's like, Hey, you're gonna be the note taker for this session. You're gonna handle scheduling. Like, because I think players can help out with that stuff. I think that's a really good idea.
Sam: well, and, and sometimes, you know, I play a lot of GM less games, right? And like a lot of the time in that you're sort of naturally doing the like, okay, Meg and Maia are in the scene, Sam's not in this scene. And so Sam's gonna a little bit like run the bartender, right? Like, sam's gonna like talk about the rain outside or whatever, do the, the dream askew, dream apart setting element kind of thing.
But like it, it's also true that like in the next scene when like Maya and Sam are like doing a really intense scene, it maybe makes more sense for like Meg to pick up that intimacy coordinator kind of role. Right? Like to, check in and like, you know, keep a, keep a lifeguard at the player level while people are diving deep into the character level.
Maia: That's a good idea. And I like the term, you know, maybe they could, they could be called lifeguards. And it's it's inter, like, it's interchangeable. So when it's, when you're not in the spotlight, you're the lifeguard.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, that's, you know, it depends on the, like, do we need that kind of lifeguard for um, honey heist?
Maia: Probably, probably, you know, less
Sam: but like, maybe it's nice to like just know, like to have that framework in our heads in case someone's bear phobias coming to the foreground or whatever, right.
Like,
Maia: But, but for games like this that are just heavy on the soul, yeah, a hundred percent.
Sam: Yeah. Okay, so Kath is now negotiating with Rusty more directly, and she starts by just kind of begging, like, please help. And then he starts, I think, I think actually Kath is the one who is like, we can't pay as much as century, but like we have something like, can we work something out? And rusty is like, you know, maybe currency is not the thing that you would pay with.
And he is like,
Maia: lots of suggestions. Lots of like innuendos, like
Sam: Yes. And like you can take them in several ways, right? Like you can take them into like, okay, well they do have this like beat up car. Like maybe the thing they're gonna negotiate here is like, you keep the car and all the good parts on it and like, give us a ride to the next town. Or maybe you're gonna sleep with this guy at like, that's what's gonna, and like he rusty is clearly leaving that door open.
What is it like in this moment where you start to introduce that into the scene? I mean, 'cause you kind of touched on this earlier of like, this feels like the thing that would happen here, and I completely agree with that. But like, once you have done so, how are you feeling?
Maia: Once I've kind of, you know, made the propositions and stuff like that,
Sam: Yeah.
Maia: What's going through my head is that I'm split minded. it's weird and I'm, I'm trying to explain it the best that I can, but I am, I'm partly Maia, the Game Master, and then partly Rusty. And so I'm like, okay, this is, this is Rusty, this is how he would act. It's completely vile and disgusting.
And I know this in my head as Maia the Game Master, and so I'm going to propose this idea. Totally. It's gross. And I'm gonna see what, see what happens.
But I, again, I know Meg and I know she like, lives for this type of story beats and like these type of challenges. So I propose it to her and then, I stop. And I guess that part is what I cut out. You asked before if there's anything that I cut out, I cut out a pause. And I'd probably put that as the audio tag at the end. But there is a beat where I stop because I feel so gross.
And so I make that proposition and then she meets it and I'm like, okay, we're getting closer. We're, we're getting to the point of no return. I know that in my head. And I go, I stop. I go meg, I feel disgusting. How do you feel? And so we kind of just like both laughed because we both feel gross. Um, And it, it was like such a needed like release because the tension was going up, up, up.
And so I stopped for a second. Like the player didn't call it. I called it and I was like, Ugh,
Sam: Yeah.
Maia: I feel gross. How do you feel? Like, do you wanna keep going? We're about to pass the. We're about to pass it. And she was like, she left too. She's like, no, no, no. This is good. This is good. And so I was like, okay. So that's just kind of what happened is like I made that proposition and then I, I broke character because I could only go so far. And then. We had that moment, like we truly needed that break. Like we needed a, it was like a minute too, it wasn't even that long, but we just needed like a laugh. We needed to breathe and just take a breath.
And then then I was like, okay. And we went back into it and the rest of the clip is like, she, I, she makes like a better deal or something like that,
Sam: yeah.
Well, I find the, the moment that comes after that, really interesting, and I just listened to it and I want to lay it out. Because what happens is there's this, I would say the peak of harrowing moment for me is she describes like I could pay with something else. And she, like Meg says, like I point, like Kath kind of points to her body and like can't bring herself to say it.
And like,
Maia: yeah. No, it,
Sam: it's, it's really, really icky. And and then what happens is Rusty's like, great, all the money that you have plus 30 minutes, we will take alone together. We will repair the car and get you out of town.
And then Kath is like, okay, well I have $900. And Rusty's like, oh, sick. Well, we can forget the whole like sexual coercion thing. That's a lot of money. We'll just repair your car and get you outta here and not rat out Ryan.
And like in my mind this feels like the players backing down. Because in my mind, rusty still has them over a barrel and like has already negotiated this deal. Why is he just letting her off the hook? If like, I'm glad that he does because like I'm glad they get out of this without that, and I think it is like so, so reasonable even after you've had this check-in where everyone is like, we're okay with this, to then go back in and be like, well let's steer away anyway.
But I'm, curious about what you are thinking about in that moment. Like, did, did Kath really have enough money or did she just like, name a number and you were like, that seems like enough. Or like, what was it like where you sort of pull out of the nosedive there? What are you thinking about?
Maia: Yeah, so I knew that I didn't want it to go all the way. I think in my head in this moment, I said, we're going to go 95% of the way. I think that's enough. I think you're on the edge of your seat, like biting your nails. Like she's not gonna do this, right? No, no, no, no, no. Please don't, don't, don't. She's,
and, and I wanted to get up to that moment and and so she presents that number and I think, I think it's enough to be like, oh, you didn't mention you had $900. That's, that's a lot of money. Like in this, in this setting in the nineties. I would say that's a lot of money and so.
Sam: Totally.
Maia: And so I was like, I, I think he would take that.
And even if it's not a hundred percent realistic, I think that's okay. I think maybe that's where the line was for me. If she went all the way where I, so I wanna go just up into the line.
It's kind of like in the movie Get Out, like the most realistic thing at the end of Get Out as he's a, a, a black man bloodied over a white woman's body. The most realistic thing if the cop show up is that he's getting gunned down and like brutal murder. Not that his friend shows up. And it's, he, his friend comes and saves the day. It's not the most realistic thing, but for the audience we get this kind of satisfying beat in the story. Like, you can breathe and, and you can cheer and you can be like, oh, thank God. You know? So it's that kind
Sam: everyone watching Get Out feels what the ending could be
Maia: Oh, exactly. And he filmed that alternate ending.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah, I've seen it on youTube. Yeah. Like the version where, I mean, he doesn't get gunned down, I think in the version they put to film, but there's a version where he is behind
Maia: yeah, he's in prison and you're like, well, this is depressing. I could see why he did it. Yeah. And so I think there's a thing where you're like, just give the people their, their good moment. And I think, yeah.
Sam: yeah, and give them the care of like sending them out into the world a little more gently.
I mean, i, I think Get Out is a really interesting comparison point in particular where like.
Maia: Yeah.
Sam: Y you know, people remember movie endings way more, there's like data on this way more than they remember the rest of the movie. Like if the, the movie's a great movie and then the ending is a little bit of a letdown. Like, people don't recommend the movie.
I mean, you see this like Game of Thrones, right? Like people loved that and now no one talks about it because the endings like everyone hated, right? And like, I think that this is an interesting moment in that that's not what happened. You actually, like, you don't go all the way, but like what happens next is like, okay, the, the goons escort Kath back to the hotel and like rob her, like, and it like remains terrible.
Maia: yeah. No, I mean, the part where you can breathe is that she doesn't give her body away. I think that's the biggest thing. Like, okay, yeah, in that world, they're gonna rob her fine, but like.
Like that kind of, it's not sexual assault per se, but it's still like she doesn't want to do this, but she is, she's technically consenting, but like doesn't want to, and so that's like the biggest thing.
But like her getting robbed after that, I think people are like, yeah, that makes sense there. These guys
Sam: it's, rough and like, you, you don't wanna get out of this with nothing. And like, frankly, like, like they, they take someone's insulin too. I think you told me maybe Ryan is
Maia: uh, Luke is diabetic. And I think, I think it just makes for more more interesting story because this system is all about the stops and the encounters along the way. And so they need a reason to pull over. So that's why you're like, well, your car needs to be fixed so you have to pull over 'cause that's where the story happens.
Like the story isn't just, you get on the 95 and you're on the freeway and then. Okay. I guess we could talk in the car, but like, no, it's like we even have this clip and all this crazy stuff that happened is because their car had like, needed to be fixed, they pulled over.
And so I wanted to take away a few of their things so that they needed more stuff. They need more reasons to like, pull over and talk to people and go into a store and like buy stuff. So that's why I had the goons like shake them down even more.
Sam: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great choice. I think that's a really astute observation about how this kind of story is gonna function.
So the, the other comparison here with the ending of this to the ending of Get Out is that like, this is gonna be serial also, and I feel like if you had crossed the line to Kath actually selling her body I think that would've been something that really hung on over the course of the rest of your
Maia: Yeah, it would've been this dark cloud and,
Sam: mean, I think in real life, even as far as you went, would hang over people for quite a while. And I haven't listened to the rest of the show. It is entirely possible that that happens here, but I think that not crossing the, that final threshold is a good choice so that you don't have to be dealing with the reality of this for the rest of Kath's story.
Maia: Yes. that wasn't like a, a conscious thought in my mind. I just knew that I didn't wanna go that far. But it's good for those reasons that you said too. That is something that hangs over somebody that they had to do this, you know, they had to make these kind of sacrifices that are shameful.
Which is, that's also good storytelling as well. You know, people have to make decisions like that all the time. But I know, hey, we're playing RPG so we can control the story. And I, I didn't wanna go all the way.
Sam: Yeah, I mean it's, it's like if you want this to be what the story is about from now on, like more power to you, but you are kind of making that choice. Like if that's what happens next, you know?
Maia: yeah. yeah. And I think everybody can kind of like breathe easier knowing that it didn't happen. Like, oh, thank God they're only getting robbed.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. And what a, what a thought. oh, thank God they're only getting robbed.
Um, yeah. So after the session, it's not, you have this big moment of checking in, like in the middle of this moment. what's it like after you turn the mics off?
Maia: After we turn the mics off, we have our kind of debrief sessions that I do in all my games, whether they're kind of these high polished podcasts or the regular actual plays that you see. I do stars and wishes. And so star is what you liked about the session. It could be what the GM did, what a player did, a story beat that you liked, and then a wish, a wish to see something happen. A, a goal, a wish to see something not happen anymore.
And that's also our moments to like. Remove ourselves from our characters and talk about them in third person, to be like, I am not that person. It didn't happen to me, but this, this was so cool. And it's kind of a debriefing moment.
Because bleed is real, a hundred percent like character bleed and how your character feels bleeding into you as a person. So it's a, a chance to, to remove ourselves from the story a little bit so that you can handle that bleed. That does come in a little bit.
Sam: I wanna shout out the music in this as like really being a perfect choice to underscore all of this. Is that like a, a track that you had or did you compose it?
Maia: It was a track I used a lot of, actually the electric State is an art book. It's like narrative art book by Simon Stalenhag. He also has albums that he creates. So he has an Electric state album that I use a lot throughout season one. So you're either listening to that or you're listening to, I, I pull a lot of music from Monument Studios. I can't be World Beyond number and start crafting my own music. I will, I will simply fade away. I can't.
I,
Sam: need full-time job situation to be able to do that, but yeah.
Amazing. I mean, that's the end of the session. That's the end of the moment here. Like, like looking back at it now, how do you feel about it? Like, is there anything else you wanna, like, convey about it? Like, Like,
what are you, what's your relationship with this moment like now, months later?
Maia: I think. There's, there's like no regrets. There's nothing that I would change. I think what this has taught me is the importance of safety tools and knowing who you're playing with because I couldn't do this with like, brand new people who I just, 'cause I do like open casting a lot 'cause I like playing with new people, but I wouldn't do this with new people.
I had been playing with Meg for a long time up up until this point. I know her play style. I'm glad we had the session zero. So I think this whole experience is like, thank God you had that session zero. You talked about lines and veils. 'cause can you imagine if we didn't have the mess that this can turn into if it's not handled well is what I think about sometimes. I'm like, this could have been horrible.
Sam: Yeah.
Maia: There's like a lot of points that came together. Well, to make this all work, like I had to be comfortable. All the players, not just Meg, even though she's like the main character in this point, but like everybody has to be comfortable. Like the other players could have stopped as well.
So I'm just thinking about all of that and how important it is to communicate and stop and take breaks where you need it. Like it's okay. Like when you're creating these high polished podcasts for actual play, I would always tell myself, like, because I'm making something that I would wanna listen to, I don't really like that much out of character talk, so I, I go, like, when I press record, you guys we're in it. There's not that much table talk. But I learn like, Hey, it's okay to stop it. This kind of taught me like, Hey, you could take a breath. Even the GM can call for it. Like lines and veils are not just for players. And when you feel uncomfortable, that's, that's on you too. Like, you can also say like, let's stop real quick, pause.
So yeah, a lot of that stuff like safety stuff came up because this could have went horribly if if it wasn't handled well.
Sam: Yeah.
Maia: Mm-hmm.
Sam: actually When you're looking at this moment after the fact when you're putting it together, how much are you thinking about your audience? Like, are you thinking about like, is your audience just not gonna wanna hear this or be a part of this? Like, like obviously people can just turn it off and that's fine, but are you concerned about losing listeners? Like are you concerned about like, springing this on people? Like how are you thinking about audience as you edit
Maia: I will, I will be honest. And I, I'm better about it now. I, I didn't use content warnings. That wasn't just something that came into my mind. I think this was like my first podcast. And so lots of like learning.
I think that's the case for a lot of people who are just starting out. They're like, let's just sit down at the table and try to tell a cool story together.
then it wasn't until after the fact until I started talking to other podcasters and getting comments from people about this moment, about content warnings in general, that I thought, okay, this is actually important. I will now start putting this in my descriptions at the top of the episode. So yeah.
Sam: Yeah, totally. Well, thanks for coming on the show and breaking this down with me. I mean, I found listening to this moment with a critical eye be like really illuminating and educational for like, how to approach safer play at the table. So I hope people got that out of it.
Maia: I hope so. I've, I've had people message me and they're like, oh, this part is really uncomfortable. And I'm like, yeah, that's the, that's how it's supposed to make you feel.
Sam: yeah.
Maia: Feel free to skip.
Sam: Maia, thank you so much for being a dice exploiter. What a pleasure to have you.
Maia: this was so fun.
thanks again to Maia for being here. You can listen to Mia's Game Room and their upcoming star forged campaign wherever you get your podcasts right now, and you can find Maia on Blue Sky at Mia's Game Room. Thanks to everyone who supports Dice Exploder on Patreon. As always, you can find me on Blue Sky at Dice Exploder, or on the dice Exploder discord.
And you can find my games at s dunwell do itch.io. Our logo is designed by Sporgory. Our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Gray. And our ad music is Lily Pads Buma Boy, Travis Tessmer Travis t. Ugh. They, no one's got a better DJ name than that. You know Travis TI remember when he first told me that. Yeah.
It's just so good. Thanks to you for listening. I'll see you next time, Sam out.