Listen to this episode here.
Last week, indie rpg YouTube essayist Aaron Voigt and I delved into Heart: the City Beneath, a surreal and maximalist dungeon crawler with lots to love. But when I ran the game, I had some trouble with it from a mechanic that by all accounts I should love: beats, little nuggets of story, little goals your character takes on that they advance by achieving. I’ve always found it strange I didn’t love beats in practice, and I today I wanted to break down how and why they left me overwhelmed and unsatisfied. I think there’s at least as much to learn from looking at what doesn’t work in games as what does, especially in games and other art that feels so close to exactly for you…
Further Reading
Heart: the City Beneath by Rowan, Rook and Decard
Spire: the City Must Fall by Rowan, Rook and Decard
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Transcript
Transcripts available at diceexploder.com
Heart: the City Beneath. It’s a surreal and bloody dungeon crawler full of so much to love… plus some bits that drive me up the wall. This week and next I’m devoting TWO episodes to it. Today, it’s everything I love about Heart as seen through the lens of zenith abilities: epic things that let players take control of the game and do something gigantic and fucking cool… before killing their character.
I’m joined by ardent Heart-lover Aaron Voigt, aka the guy who makes the indie rpg video essays on YouTube. We get into Heart’s spectacular setting, the act of handing story agency over to players, and the joys of playing to lose. Then come back next week for part two with more Heart and more Aaron!\
Transcript
Sam: Hello and welcome to another episode of Dice Exploder. Each week we take a tabletop RPG mechanic and smash it into the freaking moon. My name is Sam Dunnewold and my co-host this week is Aaron Voigt.
Yes, Aaron is back. Last week we talked about Heart, the city beneath by Rowan, Rook and Decard, and today we are returning for a second bite at the Apple. If you haven't listened to last week's episode, this is very much a continuation of that conversation, but in case you didn't listen to it, or if you want a refresher, here's a reminder of where I'm at with this game.
Heart is a dungeon crawler, but not just any dungeon crawler. It takes us through a vast dream-like dungeon towards the Heart, an epicenter of weirdness that grants wishes maybe. It's a game with some of the most creative and spicy, sideways logic, fantasy ideas in it that I've ever encountered.
But I have a complicated relationship with Heart. I love parts of it, like zenith abilities, which Aaron and I talked about last week. Just like the game's flavor, they are so juicy, so bombastic, and so inspiring.
But other parts of the game, don't click for me. And today we're here to talk about some of those through the lens of one mechanic in particular: beats, little narrative, bits that a player wants to see their character encounter, and if they do Rewards them with a new ability.
I really should love this mechanic. And for a while I did, but for me, in practice, beats play out like a leaky boat. There's little holes in the subsystem everywhere and ultimately, I'd probably be better off just swimming on my own.
As I hope I showed last week, I think there's a ton to love about Heart, but I think this game is popular enough that it can take a little criticism, and I also think there's a lot of value in examining what doesn't work in games sometimes, especially in games that are so effective in some ways and lackluster in others. Plus, I think my real complaints here might be as much about the trad play style at large as this particular game.
That said, I knew when I was sitting down for this, I wanted to have someone on who's a much more ardent lover of the game to do it with me, and so I'm welcoming back aaron Voight. Aaron is a game designer, but he's also one of just a few people on YouTube regularly making video essays about Indie RPGs. He's got a wide back catalog with essays on games like Stew Pot and Triangle Agency and tons of other games like the Kind Eye feature on Dice Exploiter. So if you like this show. You might just like his work too. Before we get into it, thanks to everyone who supports Dice explode on Patreon. And with that, here is Aaron Voight with Beats from Heart, the city beneath.
Aaron Voigt, welcome back for round two here in the arena, the dice exploding arena.
Aaron: thank you for having me. I understand this is where we're getting our knives out.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good movie. we are here once again to talk about Heart, the City Beneath. We did a lot of setup and talking about how much we love the world of this in last week's episode. And I think we're going to skip all of that. Just kind of assume that you are binge listening to these and get right back into talking about this game mechanically.
So, we kind of explained how Beats work last time because we had to do so to talk about Zenith abilities. But let's just do a refresher. What's going on with Beats?
Aaron: Right. So when you create your character, you choose what's called a calling, which is basically the reason why your character is going into red, wet hell as a, how I would call it. And tied to those callings are what they call beats. They're basically little narrative check boxes that both help you advance your character and take, you know, a special moves but also give you a. You know, mission to fill out.
For example, if we're using the Enlightenment calling, this is a calling that's like you're a person who is driven to solve something impossible.
Sam: Yeah, why does evil exist in the world or like how do I become immortal or something? Like that, right?
Aaron: Yeah. Classic.
Sam: Why did my wife die?
Aaron: So, if you've taken the enlightenment calling, one of your beats might be put the acquisition of knowledge above preserving the lives of your allies. A major one might be take major mind fallout. And then the Zenith is find the secret, final secret you have so desperately sought and use it to solve your impossible task.
It gives you that structure. it stems from your background of being like, I want to learn something to being like, I'm going to put people in danger because of that. I'm going to put myself in danger because of that. And then I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to do it.
Yippee.
Sam: yippee
So, in any given session, you, as a character, pick two beats that are your, like, active beats. These are the ones where, like, if they happen, you get to check them, and then you get to take a minor, major, or zenith ability based on having done so.
I think that's just because, you know, there's, like, a full page of these things for every calling. Like, 30 of them or something, and having all of them active at once would feel really overwhelming I think. And so you pick two, and that's a signal to focus on this too, right?
Like the way it's laid out in the book, as I remember it anyway, is it's a very explicit like, DM your job is to take the beats that the players give you, and find ways to incorporate them into the story. To do prep around them. Like, if you take the beat, defend a Haven from attack, then the DM is supposed to put the group at a Haven, or like, make a Haven nearby, and then have some people attacking it.
And, when I started playing this felt like it was gonna be great, because as DM, you have to prep, right? Like, you do have to go and figure out how you're gonna do that. But also, it gives you direction for that prep, right? It becomes very clear ideally what the players are pointing you towards and
my experience was that it was really hard to do that still. That actually when I got Eight different beats from my four players at the end of one session going into another, then I felt really anxious when I wasn't able to when like it was clear where the story was kind of headed in my mind but I felt obligated to sort of like bring in five other beats into that story and it felt like it was at times disruptive to the story, like took it in like some weird sidebar direction, that like I guess someone was interested in but like the other three people and I at the table weren't really headed in that direction. And so like where were we?
And I just maybe this is just because I'm allergic to prep, but I found it really difficult and anxiety producing to actually try to incorporate beats into my prep
Aaron: I think that's fair. You know, the resistance system generally does want you to do a lot of prep in order to, like, actually get to the point where you can make that system work and make those fallouts pay off.
That said, though, I think it really is just, like, you kind of have to be very explicit about how that works, and be like, Hey players this session we are going to try to trip these two beats, so you two players look out for them. Sorry, other two players. We just got to focus on these. Maybe next time it'll be your chance. And then, you know, I think it really just has to be like, I need your help because this is a lot to manage.
But you know, I think you're correct that it, it seems and it can be overwhelming. And it is just a matter of like being very clear about expectations and how to, how to set those off.
Sam: Yeah. Well, I think maybe it's like a player's skill thing, too, right? Like, if you're out here picking beats that are, like, wildly afield from what the rest of the party is interested in doing, then like on the one hand, that's sort of your entry into the conversation, that, like, maybe the direction we're headed is not one that I'm interested in, and like maybe can we pull it in this direction, and it's nice to have a mechanic that kind of flags that. But it is also sort of like, okay, cool, but we are gonna do these other things too, you know, like if you're, if you're gonna go do that, like, I guess have fun.
I don't know, I like the way that it is a really nice line of communication, like a medium of communication, beat selection and incorporation. But it felt bad that the responsibility for it was so entirely placed on the DM then.
Aaron: Yes. I, think that's completely fair. I think that is a, you know, a difficulty of using the resistance system, and I think the only way to get around that is communication,
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Aaron: does break the, you know, the narrative spell, right? I think I, you just gotta be like, hey, help me out here.
Sam: Yeah. It was really interesting. Like I started playing Heart right on the tail of playtesting Our Traveling Home, which is a game by Ash Kreider, my friend who I then went on to play Heart with, basically like a Howl's Moving Castle game, right? It's very, like, Stewpot like and Firebrands like, and the kinds of minigames that it sets up for you to play.
But each character is, like, a pre gen character, like, a prescribed character, who comes with a bunch of beats, they're called markers in our traveling home, and they'd be things like, Complain about being taken advantage of. Warn the wizard that they're in danger of losing their humanity. Grudgingly use your power to make the family happy.
And I found the beats, the markers in that game to be really, really great. But I think that in retrospect that is because they were things that like I could do, like I had control over. Like I knew they were my responsibility as a player to eventually do these things. And then sort of like set up the natural interactions with other characters, like my arc personally, my arc with the wizard, like all these things are just sort of included in these beats that only I have to think about.
And once we came into Heart and started doing Heart beats incidentally, incredible pun, because they're more open ended, because they're not my responsibility, it got muddier. It just got lost somewhere. The magic of it.
Aaron: I wonder also, I don't know if in Our Traveling Home those beats are tied to any sort of narrative or mechanical, like, advancement?
Sam: A little bit, the, the way it works there is like, as a group, you know, we have like 20 markers to hit in act one and 20 markers to hit in act two, and then at the end of the game we get the best possible ending if we got 37 plus markers, and we get, like, a little bit worse ending if we had 30 to 37 markers, and so forth. So it sort of turns into, like, how dour of an ending do you get?
Aaron: So, in that game, beats is incentivized to get a good ending for your entire table. Whereas, in Heart, it is both specifically tied to an individual character's advancement, and also, you know, your mechanical advancement, which is traditionally handed down via XP or whatever you call it when you hit a certain marker and then you level up from, from the gm. And I think that might be another point of friction where it's like, it feels weird to be like, Hey, gm, I wanna level up. Can we please, you know, find a tall building so I can kick someone off of it?
Sam: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Aaron: that is another point of contention that is fair. But, you know
Sam: you know, thinking about it that way, like, My experience of playing Our Traveling Home was that zero people actually thought about the reward of good ending at the end of the game. The thing that you thought about was like, Oh, this is the checklist of things I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna go do them now.
And when the Heart beats out there are more DM facing, they stopped, I mean, I guess I'd be curious what the experience is like as a player of Heart, because I've only DM'd it. But my experience was that the players were no longer thinking of those beats as their responsibility.
They were thinking of them as my responsibility. And, so they're not in the middle of the session being like, Okay, okay, how can I defend a Haven from attack? Because I can't start that because I'm not gonna go attack the Haven, right? Or like, I had a player I remember Take a beat that's like take minor blood fallout and kept trying to like pick fights with people and then like just never got minor blood fallout and was like I tried so hard to get this beat checked because I wanted an ability based off of it and it just like, it just didn't work out because they just had less control over the ability to do it.
Aaron: Right, that's true. Especially the ones that's like hit X fallout. It's like, well, it just depends on how the dice will go. Um, And that, can be disappointing from a player standpoint. Cause you know, as you said earlier, people love to die and to take fallout.
Sam: Yeah.
Aaron: But yeah, I mean, like, even in spite of that, I do think it is so useful as a, mechanical and, you know, narrative scaffolding tool to be like, Let's aim for this so I can actually, have a narrative arc, which is not something that everybody thinks about when they're, when they're making a tabletop character.
Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been kind of like dragging on Beats here, but I think there's a lot of really good here even if the execution doesn't totally come together for me. And I think let's talk about the ways in which Beats just rule for a minute.
Like, maybe, let's turn this over to you. Like, what do you love about Beats, and what about them, like, really works for you, if it
Aaron: first I, I do a little bit of writing. I wrote a novel and then I made a resistance system game based in the world of that novel to taunt for the ravenous. Um, And I, I'm very proud of that. so that's where my, my love of the beat system comes from, is that, like, writing tradition, right?
not to dredge up a conversation that was had last year on the internet, but, like, when Quinn's Quest was talking about Slug Blaster, he made the comment that, like RPGs have difficulty telling stories, and, like actual plays are successful because they have people that are working towards building those character arcs out. Whereas, like, at the table, when you're just kind of chilling with your friends it's a little bit more difficult to do that. You know, not everybody like has that sense that you are building , over an arc. You have to, you know, like establish your character. Establish what they want. Have them face adversity in finding what they want. And then have a change where they're a different person at the end. Right? You know, in that traditional three act structure way.
And that's not to say that there's anything wrong with that style of play or that it is even, that, that three act structure, you know, character being changed over the course of the story is the norm or should be the norm.
Sam: Microscope is a great game and isn't doing that, right? There are plenty of games that don't do that, but there are plenty of games that are clearly aspiring to do that and don't necessarily do a good job of supporting players in doing so.
Aaron: Right, exactly. And that's why I think it is so nice to have that path laid out, right? Even segmenting it into, Minor, Major, and, you know, Zenith beats does give you a three act structure, right? You have, here's a little bit of adversity that kind of adds to your character in the Minor beat. Let's have a major bit of adversity that's like, okay, you're taking a big step. You know, it's not just like, oh, be kind of shady to your team, but it's like, oh, you know, Blow up a, a building or whatever in order to get closer to the heart, right? And then finally culminating in that narrative climax with your Zenith. To be like, hey, now I've reached the apex of my character's arc.
You know, this also works really well because it is, again, a, a horror game in that way. And it is, like, aiming towards, like, a kind of, like, big red reveal at the end. But like, I do love that this game is trying to get players to think about that and be like, okay, yeah, if I take the forced calling is a really, interesting one because it's like, oh, I don't actually want to be here. This sucks. And like, that kind of says like, oh, you are, your, your whole arc is like, you are being controlled by a group of people that are like making you go into the heart. And at the end, it's like, okay, you either make it so they can never, you know, control you again, or you get back at them. And that, like, if you start from there, it is really useful to be like, okay, let's work our way back and get to where that character arc is.
You know, when I am writing a novel, whenever I plot out a character arc, it is very useful for me write out where I think the arc is going to go, write the book, and then be like, okay, I kind of got there, or actually I have a really cool ending image, but I haven't got there you know, from the beginning, so I go back and revise and make it fit that ending. But by telling the players who are reading Heart hey, this is where you are ending, they can already start aiming towards that and start taking beats to lead to that path, which I think is, is a really useful technology.
Sam: Yeah, I mean I write the same way. I find it really hard to write a screenplay without knowing what that climactic scene is going to look like, like what that final moment is going to be. And, I mean, even if the actual, like, execution of beats is not working for me, like, the overall structure of them, I think, does exactly what you're talking about, and, like, makes the game better by virtue of its existence because people are thinking about it. Right?
Like, who cares about the actual minutiae of the mechanic? The fact that, like we know that you are the forced, you are down here thinking about not wanting to be here and getting back at your captors, like, it's so, so good to have set that up in advance and to know where that's ending so that you can steer into it. And so that other people can support you in that, too, right? And the DM can support you in that, and your fellow players can support you in that.
Aaron: Right, right. And I do think it does require communication both with your game master and the people at the table to be like, Hey, here's roughly where my character arc is gonna end up. Broadly, I am a fan of doing that kind of meta conversation at your table but, you know, again, just, just a useful tool to have.
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This is a sort of an adjacent idea to beats, but some of the beats are just kind of boring, right? Like take minor blood fall out to me is not a particularly interesting beat. Like it doesn't really say a lot about your character, it's just sort of like, get hurt. And like that's still like encouraging you to get in trouble. And I think that that's perfectly good.
But I also think that it's just good to have really simple generic things like that as possibilities on a list like this so that when people are like, I don't know I don't want to think about it right now or I'm tired they can just like or like I don't understand how this game works and like I know what that means at least That they can just like check those and take them.
I think that there is A lot of value like, simplicity, like that, right? In the same way that, like, the fighter is just not a complicated class in D& D for the most part. It's good that that's there, so that if someone is like, I don't understand how any of this shit works, and I just want to do something simple, I just want to be a guy who hits people with a sword, whatever, let's get to playing.
Like, I think that including that kind of thing in your game is really good.
Aaron: Yeah, I mean, sometimes it is just nice to be like, Here's the two contrasts, right? You have, get in a fight and take, you know, minor blood fallout. It's like, all right, sure. I, that's not hard to engineer. And then there's more like exciting ones that are specific. Like, have a cocktail fighting move or legendary beast named after you. And it's like, okay. I think the presence of those more boring beats does help draw a parallel to be like, Hey, this game is as weird as you want it to be. It could be very normal if you want. Or, you could do something much stranger.
Sam: yeah, totally.
Have you DM'd a lot of resistance stuff?
Aaron: Yeah, I have, I've probably done at this point, like maybe eight ish resistance games.
Sam: Oh wow, yeah. So, what is your experience, in contrast to mine, of like being a DM, taking in beats and then working with them?
Aaron: Yeah, I mean, like, I don't disagree that it is, it can be overwhelming. I mostly run one shots of Heart specifically. So, it is way harder to do beats in a one shot. I think it is absolutely more geared towards a campaign.
But yeah, I do think it is it is useful, right, as a point of prep, right, like I I'm going to be running a One shot of heart tomorrow. And the thing that I asked was like, Hey can you send me the beats that your characters are doing? Because it's like, okay, here are some flags that I can start building my prep around. That's really useful.
And then like, I think when I run it again, I'll, you know, because of this conversation, I'll be like, Hey, can y'all just like say, if at a certain point you feel like we can direct the story towards this, you know, say it out loud. Because, yeah, like, I do think it is hard, and there is a play culture expectation that the GM is going to make everything happen. And I, you know, I, I think that beats are, are useful in helping to communicate that need, both to the GM and to the players, and, you know, I think it really just is a matter of, like, Having to be open and honest like hey, I can't I can't think of all these right now and hopefully over the course of you know multiple sessions.
You can kind of hit the beats that you want to
Sam: Yeah. It's a lot to hold in your head. so I wrote this blog post last year about principles and moves and agendas in PBTA games where, like, Apocalypse World has all these agendas and principles that I think are, like, really good advice and, like, goals to keep in mind as you're playing. And also there's, like, 11 of them, and I just can't keep all of those in my head when I'm playing the game.
Like at this point in my life, I've internalized most of them. I'm doing them kind of reflexively. And like, that's one thing, but when I was starting to GM, I felt just like completely overwhelmed by trying to do all of those things at once.
And I, I wrote about how like Apocalypse World also has all these like good pieces of advice in the book that aren't categorized into principles and agendas and I didn't feel overwhelmed by those. I would just remember them sometimes and I wouldn't others but they're not like on the MC sheet when you're looking at it sort of stare you in the face being like remember you have to do these things.
So I was writing about like you just have fewer principles and I got pushback by people saying like, well, I just like ignore 'em. You know? Like if I don't know what to do, I look down and I skim those and like if one tells me what to do and inspires me, and then that's great and I go back to it.
And I think that there's really this split between people who are looking to the rules as a safety net. Like when they don't know what to say next, they like look to their sheet and they're like, ah, that gives me an idea. And then they say the next thing.
And then there are people like me, who are thinking of that sheet as like, You must do these things. Like this is your obligation to do all of this all the time. And I know that like, that's not often like how it's written, but that's just like how it feels to me.
And I feel like there might be a split on beats there also, of like, are these an obligation, or are these something that you can just kind of look to when you need to figure out what to say next?
Aaron: Yeah, the problem with tabletop games is that they can't make you follow the rules. Uh, it's, uh, there is no, nobody is going to come out and scold you for not getting, you know, your principles exactly
Sam: but I feel like they're gonna like I feel like I like like I want to trust the designer, you know I want to trust that the designer put those there for a
Aaron: Baker is opening his Notes app right now, writing a call out post.
Yeah, I mean, like, no, because, like, I think it's true, right? Especially if, as, you know, a game designer, you're like, I wrote the game in a specific way. I do want it to be played in a specific way, and when you see other people doing that, you assume, like, hey, I want this game to be played in a certain way because like it does produce a certain result when it is played.
You know, as somebody who primarily reads and does not play games though, like I, I do just feel like you kind of have to, to take what works, right? Like at the end of the day none of us have enough time to play games, and like, I think we just kind of have to wing it, and maybe that is the thing with beats, is like, they are useful up into a point. think they are great for planning in execution, you kind of have to be a little bit more flexible with them.
but I completely understand the impulse to be like, this is the way the game was designed, I have to do it
Sam: I think I'd like come out of like board games and stuff, where like, sometimes, you know, you get a rule wrong, and suddenly the entire economy of Settlers of Catan just doesn't work anymore. It's just like broken in a way, and that's because you got something wrong, not because it was designed poorly.
And like, maybe it was designed poorly because they didn't communicate well enough, or maybe you just fucked up. And like, I think that sometimes tricky to thread the needle on that to me, of like, when is it the case that I should just be doing my own fucking thing, and like, it's all gonna be fine? And when is it the case that the designer put that there for a reason, and the game's gonna fall apart if I don't remember it?
It ebbs and flows.
Aaron: Right, right. Board games is a really great example because like, yeah in board games, it is, it is much more likely that if you misread something, you ruined the game. And that's kind of what I like about tabletop games is that it's like, ah, it won't mess it up quite that bad. There are still some rules that if you completely ignore, it's like, oh, this doesn't work anymore.
But like, yeah, I mean, I guess that is downside of my approach, which is, you know, mostly reading, which is like, sometimes you do just have to try things at the table and see how it works. And I think that is a downside of me having only played mostly one shots with Heart. It's like, I haven't really seen how the beat system fully, you know expands.
Sam: I, I was also like going back through old, messages in the Blades in the Dark discord where I was very active at the time when I was playing Heart and I was looking for myself talking about Heart at the moment to see how I felt then. And I found these messages that were like clearly in the middle of a campaign where I was like, the beat system rules.
And like, like, I don't know, like, I didn't, I didn't recognize myself, you know, like, in retrospect, I'm coming with this whole, yeah, who is this man? I've come with this whole narrative of like, why it didn't work for me and I think that that's true but also like clearly I was getting something out of it at the time. And like I was getting all this stuff that we've been talking about it at the time.
That's the thing about this whole fucking game for me And this mechanic in particular is like there is so much good. All the signposting stuff we've been talking about is so. And there's rough stuff in there, and it's not like it's, I don't think it's like a good mechanic or a bad mechanic, I think it's like a little bit of a messy mechanic for when it collides with my particular instincts as a person. And that's, I don't know, that's interesting.
Aaron: Yeah, I mean, you're certainly not alone. I've definitely seen people on the internet be like, I can't run resistance system games because they demand so much of it. But yeah, I mean, I, I think it is just like one of those things where you have to, to know yourself and know your players.
And I mean, that, that is also, you know, the other side of the conversation about reading versus playing when you're talking about games is like, there are so many different players, styles and, and choices that you make that like, is hard to tell until you work with your table specifically to see what will work for them.
So I think that there are absolutely groups of people who are more into the idea of character arcs who will be like, okay, yeah, let's all nail this down. And there are other groups will be like, ah, I'm mostly here for getting turned into a blood sucking plant or whatever.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about, after I was done playing Heart, I remember my thought being I want the belonging outside belonging, like, setting elements version of this game. And when I was talking about Our Traveling Home earlier, I think maybe the thing I was intuitively picking up on there is the like, GM less nature would make it so that you as a player can just make that haven come under attack so that you can go defend it, right?
And maybe we don't necessarily want me to just be like, Okay, and now the haven's under attack and I describe all these cool things and then my person goes in there and like saves them. Like maybe that's not the best way for like a GM less game to work.
But like I do think that I really feel like a version of this system where like, You, the player, have the authority, as we were kind of talking about in the Zenith Abilities episode, right? Like, if you have the narrative authority to come in and introduce the beat and make the beat happen yourself, then I would feel so much better about these. I would feel, like, I love, I love the idea of taking this system and putting it more in the hands of players so the GM doesn't have to work so fucking hard.
Aaron: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really interesting thought experiment to be like, yeah, I take a week move to be like my throat bursts open and a million little capillary serpents come out of it. Um, Yeah, I do think that one, it gets away from the problem of having to do a lot of prep and, and planning and scaffolding out.
Um, And it also gets back to that, like, conversation we just had, which was like, you know, being willing to inflict pain upon yourself eagerly. I don't know, I just, I'm really stuck on the idea of just like a little haven in the middle of the heart doing the belonging outside belonging like, you know queer haven that that's just like trying to survive. I think that is a really fun, just transplant that system into the setting of, Heart and Spire. That's really fun.
Sam: Well, and I've been thinking about it, and it's like, no, you're still an adventuring party. We're still going deeper and deeper into the heart, like, we each have a character, but we're also sort of each contributing our dreams to what happens. Like, nightmares to what happens.
And that that sort of collective unconsciousness that Heart, I think, is a lot about, like, the in fiction Heart is sort of a collective unconsciousness, and I think that there would be something really cool to making this game GM less that taps into that thematically, too.
Aaron: I mean, I don't have anything interesting to say. I just think that's a really good idea. that's really smart and would get around a lot of our criticisms, I think.
Sam: Yeah Rowan Rogodecker hired me to make second edition of Heart challenge.
Okay, so, I feel like that's a nice transition into, like, concluding thoughts about Heart. Like, if you have last words on Heart as a game, what are they?
Aaron: I mean, maybe it's just because I'm a filthy wretched YouTuber, but like, at the end of the day, I think what makes Heart work is its setting. I think that obviously there's some interesting bits of lore in there that I think are very tasty but like, it is such a strongly and vividly written setting that I think it is instantly getting people excited about it.
And then when you tie your entire you know, playbook system into that setting, then it kind of integrates you into a way that, that gets you excited, right? Obviously there's a deep apiarist, but you know vermision knight, the incarnadine the blood witches, right? There's all sorts of weird classes that aren't just as we said before, you know, like, yes, they're, they are kind of fighters. Yes, they are kind of like, wizards, but they're also deeply bought into their own shit. And I really love designers that are unafraid to be like, yeah, this is what my world's like. And I, you are required to have a functional understanding of the lore in order to play this game.
You know, maybe that's not useful at the table, but I do want us to be more snobs about the world that we design.
Sam: Specificity is the soul of this game. It is what makes it strong. It's what makes zenith abilities so wonderful. Not just the scope and scale of them, but the specificity is so cool. And beats, too. Like, the best parts of beats are the specificity. Like, here is the specific question choice that your character arc is gonna be about.
Here is the specific scene that, like, we wanna see next. and it's not just fact that the details of this setting are so, so fucking good. It's the fact that there are details in the fucking first place.
Aaron: Right.
Sam: even if it was just D& D style druid fighter wizard classes in here, If you added character arc questions, if you added specific scenes and things that might go from there, I mean, even in D& D, the idea of a spell called Flaming Hands, where you, like, the detail of your thumbs have to come together at the beginning, you have to make this particular gesture, that specificity is the kind of thing that makes even D& D sing, and it's turned up a thousand percent in Heart.
Aaron. Thanks for uh, doing two episodes of Dice Exploder with me here. This has been fabulous. Thanks so much. I'm glad to have gotten my treaties on heart into the world.
Aaron: Listen, I'm happy to defend the honor of Heart and I'm glad to have talked to you. Dice Exploder has just been a huge influence on my videos, so thanks so much for what you've done.
Sam: Of course, Thanks again to Aaron for being here. You can find his video essays on YouTube at AA voit. That's A-A-V-O-I-G-T. You can support his work on Patreon, and he's on Blue Sky at AA vo. As always, you can find me on blue sky at dice exploder, or on the dice exploder discord. You can find my games@sdunwell.itch.io.
and you can support the show on Patreon for just five bucks a month. Our logo was designed by Spore. Our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Gray. And our ad music is Lily Pads by my boy Travis Tessmer. And thanks to you for listening. I'll see you next time.